Guru Rinpoche As...

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michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:41 am

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am
As a simple soul if I am using a sadhana I use the descriptions associated with it as transmitted by the Guru. That is always the 'right' description.

Different Drolo sadhanas from different termas, different visualisations............can't see a problem.
:smile:
Fair enough. I like to understand the context around these things, though.
Just to add, I've not seen a single sadhana where the tiger is described as Ati Muwer and, it seems, no one else can provide a reference to a sadhana or terma tradition where this is the case. Any textual reference to this would be gratefully recieved. Thanks.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 am

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:41 am
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am
As a simple soul if I am using a sadhana I use the descriptions associated with it as transmitted by the Guru. That is always the 'right' description.

Different Drolo sadhanas from different termas, different visualisations............can't see a problem.
:smile:
Fair enough. I like to understand the context around these things, though.
Just to add, I've not seen a single sadhana where the tiger is described as Ati Muwer and, it seems, no one else can provide a reference to a sadhana or terma tradition where this is the case. Any textual reference to this would be gratefully recieved. Thanks.
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Posted by Mutsuk:
I don't think so, he is always depicted as a white figure, peaceful, etc. I unfortunately haven't succeeded in uploading the tsaklis I wanted to include here but the 7 of them all show him in the same way. There is no tiger anywhere around him and he is always depicted in a human form. There must have been a mistake with the identification with a tigress.

Furthermore, if he is a well-known figure in Bön, he does not appear much outside the dBal-chen Ge-khod and Zhang-zhung Meri cycles. I of course have not read all Bön tantric cycles but I'm browsing through JL's gigantic files on Bön and Ati Muwer ("King of the Supreme Sky" in Zz language) shows reference entries only for Ge-khod and Me-ri. Furthermore, in these cycles he is well-known as one of the 3 Protectors (mGon-po rnam-gsum): Bon-sku Atimuwer, rDzogs-sku Ku-byi mang-ke, and sPrul-sku Zhang-zhung Me-ri. You thus have a peaceful Dharmakaya form (always in white), a peaceful sambhogakaya form of Ku-byi mang-khe (resembling Manjushri, various forms and colors), and a wrathful nirmanakaya. No tigers around.

viewtopic.php?t=8851&start=20

Like stated earlier this Bön Dharma Protector was never outside the Bön Tree of Refuge / subdued / converted etc.
The one(s) who proclaimed that this would be the tigress of Guru Rinpoche was wrong.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 am
Like stated earlier this Bön Dharma Protector was never outside the Bön Tree of Refuge / subdued / converted etc.
The one(s) who proclaimed that this would be the tigress of Guru Rinpoche was wrong.
But it's really quite irrelevant what Bön thinks. What matters here is what is presented in the tradition of such and such Dorje Drollo cycle as found in Vajrayana.

Really, to say that this is "wrong" is completely improper, because it's not wrong. It's correct. From the point of view of the Dorje Drollo tradition that presents this as how the story is.

Bön might not like that, but that's just how it is. So yes, the tigress that Dorje Drollo stands upon is Ati Muwer. Or Tashi Kyidren. Or Yeshe Tsogyal. Etc. It depends on the traditions/cycles.

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Mantrik
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:55 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:41 am
michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am
As a simple soul if I am using a sadhana I use the descriptions associated with it as transmitted by the Guru. That is always the 'right' description.

Different Drolo sadhanas from different termas, different visualisations............can't see a problem.
:smile:
Fair enough. I like to understand the context around these things, though.
Just to add, I've not seen a single sadhana where the tiger is described as Ati Muwer and, it seems, no one else can provide a reference to a sadhana or terma tradition where this is the case. Any textual reference to this would be gratefully recieved. Thanks.
It may or may not be in a sadhana, but if your Guru explains an associated thangka to you as having Ati Muwer as the tigress in her first heat, then surely it is so, for the practice he has given you.

If a different Guru explains it differently for a different terma I don't find it problematic.
Last edited by Mantrik on Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:16 pm

But it's really quite irrelevant what Bön thinks. What matters here is what is presented in the tradition of such and such Dorje Drollo cycle as found in Vajrayana.

Really, to say that this is "wrong" is completely improper, because it's not wrong. It's correct. From the point of view of the Dorje Drollo tradition that presents this as how the story is.

Bön might not like that, but that's just how it is. So yes, the tigress that Dorje Drollo stands upon is Ati Muwer. Or Tashi Kyidren. Or Yeshe Tsogyal. Etc. It depends on the traditions/cycles.
Yeh that is realy for me as a Bönpo a shameful way of thinking, maybe you can imagine that yourself.
So when i take out of Dorje Thekpa Mahakala and make of that a bird and let ride on that bird a Zhang Zhung Master and make a Terma out of it, that would be seen in Dorje Thekpa also as wrong isn´t it ?

That vision is is by all Bönpos condemned and a cheap answer to the reality that this happening of the Tigress never took place in the world of Bön.
So nevertheless that this is NOT according the Bön facts "you" push it as true , only because it is a Terma ?
For me personal it shows the so called power of Dorje Thekpa over Bön , because a high leveled Bön protector serves as the Avatar / animal of "Vajrayana"
Very strange if there are no furhter evidences / proves for that.

So between believing and reality , there is a huge difference.
But if you have to believe something , because somebody stated that and you have no way out, then this is for me equal to blindfolded believe.
I / we as Bönpos gave the Bön vision about that epic story and sure we will keep it otherwise, than as that you have to believe it.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:21 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 pm
That vision is is by all Bönpos condemned and a cheap answer to the reality that this happening of the Tigress never took place in the world of Bön.
So nevertheless that this is NOT according the Bön facts "you" push it as true , only because it is a Terma ?
For me personal it shows the so called power of Dorje Thekpa over Bön , because a high leveled Bön protector serves as the Avatar / animal of "Vajrayana"
Very strange if there are no furhter evidences / proves for that.
What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:21 pm


What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bön-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress or other animal.
Guru Rinpoche can ride on every Avatar no problem for me, but NEVER on a Bön Dharmakaya, that is anyway impossible, because for that we need at least a Sambhogakaya form.....
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:31 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.
Guru Rinpoche can ride on every Avatar no problem for me, but NEVER on a Bön Dharmakaya, that is anyway impossible, because for that we need at least a Sambhogakaya form.....
The point is that you feel offended, as is obvious in your previous posts.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:35 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:31 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.
Guru Rinpoche can ride on every Avatar no problem for me, but NEVER on a Bön Dharmakaya, that is anyway impossible, because for that we need at least a Sambhogakaya form.....
The point is that you feel offended, as is obvious in your previous posts.
Offended ?

No not at all, its annoying for me the ignorance of many of you here about Bön matters.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:36 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 pm
[snip]
Of course you won't accept it, but so what? In Bön, Ati Muwer never manifested as a tigress. That is fine. Outside of Bön, according to one version of this story in relation to Dorje Drollo, Ati Muwer did. You don't need to accept this, just recognize that this is one of the ways the tigress is presented in its connection to Dorje Drollo, and leave it at that. Your presentation of Ati Muwer according to Bön is just fine. That is how it is presented there. I have no problem with that.

What would be a problem is for you to conclude "The one(s) who proclaimed that this would be the tigress of Guru Rinpoche was wrong." because this assumes that you are somehow speaking from the point of view of Vajrayana, in particular traditions related to Dorje Drollo (which you are not), and it also makes it seem as if this is to be dismissed as factually incorrect. But when we're dealing with terma, things can become very complicated, because something described can and usually are well above and beyond the limitations of dualistic vision, which means if one applies dualistic vision to a teaching that has its origin from the pure vision of a realized master, then one usually don't get very far, because one will get tangled up in a lot of mental constructions. And that never was the point of terma in the first place.

So, take it or leave it.

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:37 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:21 pm


What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.
Ati Mu wer, for Buddhists, it is a powerful worldly god, not a Dharmakāya. As pointed-out already, Pehar is not a scorpion, but appeared as a scorpion at Samye where he was tamed by Guru Rinpoche. Norbu Rinpoche consistently has pointed out that Ati Mu wer manifested as a tigress and that Guru Rinpoche subdued Ati Muwer. You don't have to believe it, but this the tradition I received from my teacher. Likewise, you received a tradition that Tonpa Shenrab lived 18,000 years ago— something which I don't believe at all. Since Bonpos have nothing to do with Guru Rinpoche anyway, I find it difficult to understand your interest in this thread. Guru Rinpoche defeated the Bonpos, as did Milarepa, and so on. If you take a western text critical view of these things, you will find that equally harmful to Cḧo and Bon, actually, more harmful to Bon-- because the western scholarly consensus is that modern Bon is just a form of Buddhism that arose in the 11th century, around the same time as the treasure tradition.

When it comes to these conflicts, it is better that people part ways.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Aryjna » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:38 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:35 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:31 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.
Guru Rinpoche can ride on every Avatar no problem for me, but NEVER on a Bön Dharmakaya, that is anyway impossible, because for that we need at least a Sambhogakaya form.....
The point is that you feel offended, as is obvious in your previous posts.
Offended ?

No not at all, its annoying for me the ignorance of many of you here about Bön matters.
But this is not a Bon matter.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:49 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:21 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 pm
That vision is is by all Bönpos condemned and a cheap answer to the reality that this happening of the Tigress never took place in the world of Bön.
So nevertheless that this is NOT according the Bön facts "you" push it as true , only because it is a Terma ?
For me personal it shows the so called power of Dorje Thekpa over Bön , because a high leveled Bön protector serves as the Avatar / animal of "Vajrayana"
Very strange if there are no furhter evidences / proves for that.
What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.
Well i / we gave here our Yungdrung Bön vision about this strange fact, what is in Bön not valid, like explained earlier.
If you and others here are convinced about a certain Terma story and believe that without further provements etc. then you may see sure Guru Rinpoche riding on a tigress no problem and if that tigress would be an ex Bön Protector then you can also believe that including to make a worldly God out of Him. In Bön this is in no way valid and accepted.

Here we end our dialogue, there are no further comments possible from the Yungdrung Bön side.
It was a fruitful discussion for me, which shows me how Bön is interpreted and seen in the non Bön world.
:namaste:
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:37 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:21 pm


What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.
Ati Mu wer, for Buddhists, it is a powerful worldly god, not a Dharmakāya. As pointed-out already, Pehar is not a scorpion, but appeared as a scorpion at Samye where he was tamed by Guru Rinpoche. Norbu Rinpoche consistently has pointed out that Ati Mu wer manifested as a tigress and that Guru Rinpoche subdued Ati Muwer. You don't have to believe it, but this the tradition I received from my teacher. Likewise, you received a tradition that Tonpa Shenrab lived 18,000 years ago— something which I don't believe at all. Since Bonpos have nothing to do with Guru Rinpoche anyway, I find it difficult to understand your interest in this thread. Guru Rinpoche defeated the Bonpos, as did Milarepa, and so on. If you take a western text critical view of these things, you will find that equally harmful to Cḧo and Bon, actually, more harmful to Bon-- because the western scholarly consensus is that modern Bon is just a form of Buddhism that arose in the 11th century, around the same time as the treasure tradition.

When it comes to these conflicts, it is better that people part ways.
Right.

If we look at Buddhadharma and how things are presented, or Bön and how things are presented, and do so from a Western scholarly / text critical approach, then use these conclusions as what is right and what is wrong, what is this or what is that, then quite a lot of stories would take a big hit, and if people's faith or trust in the Dharma is based on historical facts or whatever else might be, then some people will have a lot of issues to deal with.

What exactly will Bönpos then do when the conclusion is that Bön is just a form of Buddhism as you mentioned? And so then you either deal with it (in whatever way that may be, positive or negative), or just let it be as it is - which is often the best solution.

I personally don't care what the conclusion of some Western text scholar is, about either the Buddha, Nagarjuna, Guru Padmasambhava, India, Tibet, this or that. They can produce some interesting reading from time to time, sure. But in the end I really don't care. And within Tibetan Buddhist traditions - including Bön - there are many, many contradictory stories, events, details, and so on.

There are at times different takes on a singular thing. And it's best to recognize this and just leave it be, instead of getting caught up in it.

If you're going to apply a Western text critical approach to all of these things, you'll get nowhere.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:02 pm

lelopa wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am
In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal...
There is no mention at all of a tigress in the Konchog Chidu Drollo sadhana or empowerment, much less the tigress being identified as Tsogyal.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:00 pm
This is not something I've ever heard from any tersar lama, and I've specifically asked after Malcolm made that claim. Whereas it is true that Dudjom Tersar Drolo does not have extensive dzogchen teachings, and, if you want to practice dzogchen you might have to take teachings from Namchak Putri or wherever, all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.
Palden Gyatso (17th century) writes in his History of Kilaya:

At the cave of the Glorious Tiger's Lair in Paro, he engaged in the practice of Vajrakīlaya and Vajra Wrath (rdo rje khro bo) rode the tiger and liberated all māras and samaya breakers with the magic power of piercing and conquering the assembly of obstructors with his vajrakīla.

This event occurred when Guru Rinpoche was practicing Vajrakīlaya at Paro Taktsang. Thus, this is what it means to say "Drollo is the essence of Vajrakīlaya." Drollo is the personification of the khrodavajra, the vajra of wrath, "Rdo rje gro bo lod." This manifestation arises directly out of Guru Rinpoche's realization of Vajrakīlaya.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:30 pm

Drolod is Dzogchen.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:39 pm
Palden Gyatso (17th century) writes in his History of Kilaya:
At the cave of the Glorious Tiger's Lair in Paro, he engaged in the practice of Vajrakīlaya and Vajra Wrath (rdo rje khro bo) rode the tiger and liberated all māras and samaya breakers with the magic power of piercing and conquering the assembly of obstructors with his vajrakīla.

This event occurred when Guru Rinpoche was practicing Vajrakīlaya at Paro Taktsang. Thus, this is what it means to say "Drollo is the essence of Vajrakīlaya." Drollo is the personification of the khrodavajra, the vajra of wrath, "Rdo rje gro bo lod." This manifestation arises directly out of Guru Rinpoche's realization of Vajrakīlaya.
Yes, but that's not how I've heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar. Drollo is Drollo. Phurba is Phurba. There may be connections, as there are connections between all deities, but what would it actually mean for Drolo to the the essence of Phurba, anyway? It seems to me to be a vague claim that essentially means nothing. It's not like if I accomplish Drollo I've accomplished Vajrakilaya but not, for example, accomplished Hayagriva. You could say any deity is the essence of any other deity, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ial-wisdom) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Drolod is Dzogchen.
And, what does that mean, exactly?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:04 pm

michaelb wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:56 pm
Yes, but that's not how I've heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar. Drollo is Drollo. Phurba is Phurba. There may be connections, as there are connections between all deities, but what would it actually mean for Drolo to the the essence of Phurba, anyway? It seems to me to be a vague claim that essentially means nothing. It's not like if I accomplish Drollo I've accomplished Vajrakilaya but not, for example, accomplished Hayagriva. You could say any deity is the essence of any other deity, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ial-wisdom) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.
If I am correct it means that with Drolo you can easily accomplish kilaya activities.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.

~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

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