OCD

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Rick
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OCD

Post by Rick »

Any OCDers out there?

I've been obsessive my whole life, but the obsessive-compulsive thing kicked in about three decades ago.

I'm pretty sure 30 years of OCD (sometimes active, sometimes dormant, but always there) has changed the structure and functionality of my little gray cells. This includes the quality of my 'spiritual journey.'

I'm not interested in advice or (God forbid!) diagnosis (been there, had that!) ... rather in comparing notes with other OCDers, specifically in terms of how it affects your dharma study, meditation, etc.

If you're not comfortable sharing on a public forum (it took me a long time before I 'came out') and you wanna talk, pm me. :thumbsup:
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Minobu
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Re: OCD

Post by Minobu »

Rick wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:19 pm Any OCDers out there?

I've been obsessive my whole life, but the obsessive-compulsive thing kicked in about three decades ago.

I'm pretty sure 30 years of OCD (sometimes active, sometimes dormant, but always there) has changed the structure and functionality of my little gray cells. This includes the quality of my 'spiritual journey.'

I'm not interested in advice or (God forbid!) diagnosis (been there, had that!) ... rather in comparing notes with other OCDers, specifically in terms of how it affects your dharma study, meditation, etc.

If you're not comfortable sharing on a public forum (it took me a long time before I 'came out') and you wanna talk, pm me. :thumbsup:
When mixing it with sunyata / emptiness understanding...it's a huge aid.
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Rick
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Re: OCD

Post by Rick »

Clarify?
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Minobu
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Re: OCD

Post by Minobu »

Rick wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:27 pmClarify?
When we understand the actual nature of this world we dwell in , through the lense and teachings of Lord Nagarjuna's , Sunyata, even ocd can be put to use in Dharma .

It's part of me...i have ocd...but i know that it's not really all that i am...even though OCD fixates and fixates in most of what i do. It's not really real..and then again it is...So the effects of it become less a concern and the reality of it allows me to watch and observe something that is not really real and yet is real....it's a gift...something to play with in my mind....it's like one of the ultimate human delusions...being aware of it in this way i get a glimpse into all that is false about my makeup as a human incarnation...Dharma teaches that I am Buddha..this is a mere affliction..but it is so close to my being and everyday activity ....a chink in the armour of "MY" Buddhahood...

sorry but i can only point to something...can't do much more....
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Re: OCD

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Rick wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:19 pm Any OCDers out there?

I've been obsessive my whole life, but the obsessive-compulsive thing kicked in about three decades ago.

I'm pretty sure 30 years of OCD (sometimes active, sometimes dormant, but always there) has changed the structure and functionality of my little gray cells. This includes the quality of my 'spiritual journey.'

I'm not interested in advice or (God forbid!) diagnosis (been there, had that!) ... rather in comparing notes with other OCDers, specifically in terms of how it affects your dharma study, meditation, etc.

If you're not comfortable sharing on a public forum (it took me a long time before I 'came out') and you wanna talk, pm me. :thumbsup:

I don't know if I'm diagnosed or not, I think I am probably am at one time or another, but "traditional" treatment for it is not something I do anymore, nor do I want to. I have mainly the internal component- severe obsessive thinking and rumination, combined with some internal "ritual" to deal with it, and the occasional external manifestation - checking doors, etc.

I would say it affects Dharma positively in some ways, because it is so natural for me to have these hyper-repeating thought patterns and resultant emotions, as I've kind of "softened" them over the years, I've learned to take that same proclivity and apply to things like having mantra going in my head at all times etc.

I also feel like my general obsessive thinking has made aspects of Vipaysana much easier than I think they would be otherwise. In a way, anyone who has had obsessive thoughts and severe emotions has been confronted with them in a way that makes it easier to view them with some clarity, providing you can establish stable enough concentration, which is sometimes a challenge. For me in terms of meditative practice, concentration is the greatest challenge.

It's just a disposition, not an "illness" is how I look at it now, and in some ways it's actually quite a good disposition for Dharma. Like I said, for me concentration is the most difficult aspect.
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Re: OCD

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Minobu wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:48 pm When we understand the actual nature of this world we dwell in , through the lense and teachings of Lord Nagarjuna's , Sunyata, even ocd can be put to use in Dharma .
That's an interesting and creative approach to having OCD. To view it as a blessing, a living (24/7-ish) manifestation of affliction and of emptiness.

I mostly just ignore my OCD symptoms, though sometimes I think about what OCD has done to my brain/mind over the years.

For example, 'by nature' my mind gravitates towards two main states:

1. Being engaged with something (composing a piece of music, watching a tv show, writing an email, having a conversation, teaching, etc.).

2. Falling into a zombie hypnagogic trance-like state that often slides into sleep.

In other words, my mind seems to want to be fully ON or fully OFF. It resists (or perhaps doesn't 'get') the meditative state of being alert but not engaged/attached.

Now this might be just plain human. But I suspect it might have something to do with 30+ years of obsessive-compulsive thought. Obsession = ON (stuck in a thought loop), compulsive rituals turn this OFF. On/off, on/off, on/off ... after a while it creates a deeply entrenched pattern.
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Re: OCD

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:31 pm... but "traditional" treatment for it is not something I do anymore, nor do I want to.
Same here. I tried CBT exposure therapy. Hated it, and it didn't help. The only drug that ever helped was Prozac at a high dosage ... but it made me so anxious that it kind of defeated the point! I've grown to pretty much fully accept my OCD ... which might be good, and might not be so good since some of its effects can be deceptively insidious.
Like I said, for me concentration is the most difficult aspect.
I'm interested to hear your response to what I wrote above about the On/Off cycle and zombies.
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Re: OCD

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Lama Zopa Rinpoche has written beautifully on such conditions.
I don't have OCD but rather depression. I hope his input below, which I've found helpful, can be beneficial here as well.
When we have depression, we can also think about the numberless other sentient beings who have depression, and we can think, “As I've been praying, I have received all sentient beings' suffering, particularly depression. I have received it within me and I am experiencing this depression on behalf of all other sentient beings.” Think the depression that we are experiencing is not our depression, but the depression of all sentient beings.

This is extremely beneficial, because we are utilizing the depression as a path to achieving full enlightenment. We are making the depression a medicine and we are using the depression as a path to enlightenment. Depression becomes the means, like tantric practice, to purify many eons of negative karma and to accumulate infinite merit, to achieve enlightenment more quickly. The experience of depression becomes extremely beneficial and useful for the happiness of all sentient beings. So that means, naturally, we are using our depression to achieve the best happiness for ourselves, the highest enlightenment.

...

This negative karma and negative intention happened due to the ego, the self-centered mind. Therefore, this depression and harm is given to us by the ego. When we know who caused the depression, then without delaying even a second, we can immediately return the depression back to the ego and destroy it. Let the ego have it! Rather than taking the depression on ourselves, we just give it back and destroy the ego. In this way, we use the depression to destroy the ego. If we are able to destroy the ego, if there is no ego—no self-centered substantive mind— it means we have bodhicitta, cherishing other sentient beings. This is how we use depression to develop bodhicitta, the door of the Mahayana path to enlightenment, to be able to liberate all sentient beings from all their suffering and lead them to enlightenment. So, the benefits are infinite.

The other technique for depression is to reflect on the buddha nature in our mental continuum. We have the potential to actualize the whole path to enlightenment—all the realizations, all the infinite qualities of Buddha's holy body, holy speech and holy mind. All the potential is there. We just need to purify our minds so that all the realizations, all the qualities of Buddha manifest and come out. Reflecting on buddha nature is another extremely beneficial remedy for depression, depending on what type of depression we experience.
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Re: OCD

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Rick wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:31 pm... but "traditional" treatment for it is not something I do anymore, nor do I want to.
Same here. I tried CBT exposure therapy. Hated it, and it didn't help. The only drug that ever helped was Prozac at a high dosage ... but it made me so anxious that it kind of defeated the point! I've grown to pretty much fully accept my OCD ... which might be good, and might not be so good since some of its effects can be deceptively insidious.
Like I said, for me concentration is the most difficult aspect.
I'm interested to hear your response to what I wrote above about the On/Off cycle and zombies.
I have much the same experience, I also have ADHD-type symptoms though, and that comes into play. I was medicated for those for years, once I decided to completely stop with pharmaceutical medications it took some real effort to get myself out of the "zombie" phases, meditation has done wonders in that department, as have a couple supplements.

The most helpful thing for my obsessive thinking that came from an actual therapy source is this guy:

http://www.drmartinseif.com

He wrote a book on intrusive and unwanted thoughts that is the *only* Western source I've read so far that was of much use to me with my particular obsessive issues.

None of it is particularly shocking to a Buddhist - don't resist thoughts, don;t try to make them go away etc...but there are unfortunately only a few schools of thought in modern treatment that seem to pay much mind to the importance of not resisting.
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Re: OCD

Post by Rick »

Monlam Tharchin wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 pm Lama Zopa Rinpoche has written beautifully on such conditions.
Thanks, Monlam. I'm no stranger to depression, it tends to be a part of the OCD process.
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Re: OCD

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:40 pmThe most helpful thing for my obsessive thinking that came from an actual therapy source is this guy:

http://www.drmartinseif.com
Thanks, JD.
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Re: OCD

Post by TMT »

I just realized this year I have ocd. It shouldve have been more obvious with the compulsions I experienced as a child but they went dormant and I suppressed the memories as they were pretty unpleasant. My ocd revolves around scrupulosity. Im constantly worried about breaking vows or feeling overly guilty about non virtuous actions. Non virtuous thoughts are the worst because they are so automatic. Then the awful guilt ensues. OCD can be a boon in curtailing non virtuous behaviors, and can even give you the push to make big changes for the better. At least thats my experience. But thats really just me trying to find the silver lining. I think it also makes you more aware of your thought patterns and maybe could help provide a little insight into habituation. Ive often wondered if there were many dharma brothers and sisters out there experiencing something like this. Of course as I write this fears of someone becoming depressed by my post and it being my fault sounds the alarm as they say. Im going through CBT now. Slowly working through ERP. I hope it will help. I just started 2 weeks ago.
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Re: OCD

Post by Flipflop »

TMT wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:17 am Non virtuous thoughts are the worst because they are so automatic. Then the awful guilt ensues.
Thoughts in and of themselves are not a problem. Impulses are not a problem. It is mostly about impulses getting consummated.

This is a little passage from ajahn chah:

'Some people feel that these sudden arisings of thought are wrong or evil. You may have an impulse to kill someone. But you are aware of it in the next instant; you realize that killing is wrong, so you stop and refrain. Is there harm in this? What do you think? Or if you have a thought about stealing something, and that is followed by a stronger recollection that to do so is wrong, and so you refrain from acting on it, is that bad kamma? It’s not that every time you have an impulse you instantly accumulate bad kamma. Otherwise, how could there be any way to liberation? Impulses are merely impulses. Thoughts are merely thoughts. In the first instance, you haven’t created anything yet. The mental impulse is not consummated.This is how it is. Merely having the thoughts is not negative kamma. If we don’t have any thoughts, how will wisdom develop? Some people simply want to sit with a blank mind. That’s wrong understanding.'

Hope it helps.
Last edited by Flipflop on Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OCD

Post by karmanyingpo »

Flipflop wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:07 am
TMT wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:17 am Non virtuous thoughts are the worst because they are so automatic. Then the awful guilt ensues.
Thoughts in and of themselves are not a problem. Impulses are not a problem. It is mostly about impulses getting consummated.

This is a little passage from ajahn chah:

'Some people feel that these sudden arisings of thought are wrong or evil. You may have an impulse to kill someone. But you are aware of it in the next instant; you realize that killing is wrong, so you stop and refrain. Is there harm in this? What do you think? Or if you have a thought about stealing something, and that is followed by a stronger recollection that to do so is wrong, and so you refrain from acting on it, is that bad kamma? It’s not that every time you have an impulse you instantly accumulate bad kamma. Otherwise, how could there be any way to liberation? Impulses are merely impulses. Thoughts are merely thoughts. In the first instance, you haven’t created anything yet. The mental impulse is not consummated.This is how it is. Merely having the thoughts is not negative kamma. If we don’t have any thoughts, how will wisdom develop? Some people simply want to sit with a blank mind. That’s wrong understanding.'

Hope it helps.
I think it depends on the level of intent and effort put into the thoughts, right? Like if it's just a passing thought and you don't feed into it or elaborate it, don't run after it, don't solidify it with more thoughts in the same vain then I think it is light to no karma, but if it's a thought that you multiply into many more thoughts on purpose by intentionally thinking in a negative direction then I think that is definitely negative karma.

Thoughts?

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Re: OCD

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This is one of those topic where I have more experience and information that I wish I had. I have several disorders including OCD, ADHD (as well as learning disabilities) as well as trauma and personality disorders. Was institutionalized as a teen and given a very poor prognosis. This leaves me in a position to appreciate mental illness and the discord it elicits from a very intimate perspective. I purposely put it out there in light of the paradigm it conjures in others. Why? To combat the stigma. I say this so by the end of this dialog there will be some perspective. OCD is especially sharp on my perspective as it was a dominant feature in my family especially amongst the most talented, successful and influential.

It took years before I even understood the nature to my own stream of thought (outside of any buddhist context) let alone understood the variability, the disruptive triggers or cause of discordance. Now I had spent a tremendous effort over the course of my life to life, adapt and hold myself to the same measure as others. Not use it as an excuse or hindrance. I gained many skills and insights along the way in regards to the mind and the human condition. These features still played a dominant role in my life (compared to others without). Was I functional? Yes. Was I struggling without hope for more progressive adaptation? Yes. I felt that this had been the height of potential relief so I accepted it.
At this point I had been accustomed to observing it and keeping my mind in the best envelope of function relative to the triggers for my problems but had made little headway in regards to changing the internal physiological expression (I will attempt to clarify a bit later).
This is where Nichiren Buddhism was an absolute game changer. Let me see if I can do it some justice.

I was able to chant and chanting is something my distressed mind can do. Anxiety, agitation, depression, compulsion all manifest in the stream of thought. Not all are manifested by the stream of thought. Sometimes my experiences are internal dysfunction of my physiology. These are the hardest to avoid. They don’t need thought (inspiration through volition). So I never conceived of a quiet mind. Had someone suggested meditation I would have admit it was well outside of my reach.

The benefit of escaping the negative aspects of my own mind were so welcome I did not expect more. I practiced for many years, digested tiny accessible snippets of the writings and read the lotus. This practice that included the daimoku, gongyo and the gohonzon had a very profound effect on my life. I did this for a number of years or so until I had went back to see a therapist to deal with some interfamily dynamics. The therapist was versed in Zazen. In the course of treatment he taught me meditation. The first session was transcendental for me although it was because I not only encountered a stilled mind for the first time but realized I had the capacity but also because I felt this state of being that lacked what my mind has always been polluted with. I still use meditation as a means to quite the mind much like I use exercise to keep my body in shape.
What was most remarkable was the measurable gain I had gotten over mental wherewithal. No I was not healed but this was progress I could never have hoped for if I was asked earlier in life. At this point I was about 50.

Since then I have done some investigation into what is really happening under the hood so to speak. This goes back to the internal physiological expression comment earlier. It seems the illnesses I suffer have correlating traits in the brain. One such trait is frontal cortex thickness. Thin cortex is a feature in many of the illness I suffer. One trait in long term meditation practitioners is cortex thickening. This has been validated in several studies. Studies on chanting and neurological correlates exist and they are similar.

Now this is not to say these individual granular activities in and of themselves are Buddhist practices. The practice is the spine to the book that keeps the pages together and working in concert by keeping proper sequence. Rather it has simply proven to me the Buddha’s wisdom was such that he was able to elicit such benefits without having to see the internal neurological differential. I do believe he had observed the cause and effect on such a profound basis he was able to teach it as thus.

It seems as if I have gotten to a place where I can strengthen my neurological health or let it decline if I neglect practice. I say this because if I choose my environment and practice diligently I quickly lose the conditioning my mind used to impress upon me. If I encounter stress and challenges over the term I can slowly feel the effects of a discordant mind return. Diligent practice seems to affect this dynamic more directly and my ability to notice the differential is becoming clearer. As it is the most direct benefit is still achieved through actively practicing.

This has left me a grateful work in process, warts and all.
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Re: OCD

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I've said this before but:

OCD thoughts are not volitional in the manner that some thoughts are. Say I want to make a sandwich, there is a definite point where I tell myself "ok, time to make a sandwich" and I initiate the process of making a sandwich.

OCD thoughts and ruminations (as anyone with them will surely attest) aren't impulses involving much volition, they simply appear, and indeed they seem to sort of have a life of their own.

So, they only become an issue of creating Karma should you decide to act on them, for instance if you had constant OCD thoughts about theft and then decided to steal something because it gave some temporary relief.
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Re: OCD

Post by tkp67 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:11 pm I've said this before but:

OCD thoughts are not volitional in the manner that some thoughts are. Say I want to make a sandwich, there is a definite point where I tell myself "ok, time to make a sandwich" and I initiate the process of making a sandwich.

OCD thoughts and ruminations (as anyone with them will surely attest) aren't impulses involving much volition, they simply have them, and indeed they seem to sort of have a life of their own.

So, they only become an issue of creating Karma should you decide to act on them, for instance if you had constant OCD thoughts about theft and then decided to steal something because it gave some temporary relief.
What about the costs that come with that "life of their own" aspect of OCD?

Just because it doesn't register as volition doesn't reduce the liability it has on one's life. In fact I think to reduce the liability they can't be sub volitional or deniable because they cannot be observed. I don't think this falls out of the auspices of buddhist practice although it may not line up with typical naming conventions.
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Re: OCD

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tkp67 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:25 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:11 pm I've said this before but:

OCD thoughts are not volitional in the manner that some thoughts are. Say I want to make a sandwich, there is a definite point where I tell myself "ok, time to make a sandwich" and I initiate the process of making a sandwich.

OCD thoughts and ruminations (as anyone with them will surely attest) aren't impulses involving much volition, they simply have them, and indeed they seem to sort of have a life of their own.

So, they only become an issue of creating Karma should you decide to act on them, for instance if you had constant OCD thoughts about theft and then decided to steal something because it gave some temporary relief.
What about the costs that come with that "life of their own" aspect of OCD?

Just because it doesn't register as volition doesn't reduce the liability it has on one's life. In fact I think to reduce the liability they can't be sub volitional or deniable because they cannot be observed. I don't think this falls out of the auspices of buddhist practice although it may not line up with typical naming conventions.
I can't tell what you're asking.

Anyway, I'm just saying that if someone has these thoughts, they probably don't need to worry about the karmic fruit of having them, other than acting on them. I'm -certainly- not saying they don't affect people's lives seriously, as I know different from personal experience. These thoughts -are- karmic fruit, much in the same way karmic fruit of body means one's body has this or that aspect. How we deal with them is what creates new karma, not the fact that they exist.

Basically what the Ajan Chah quote that Flipflop quoted above says:
Some people feel that these sudden arisings of thought are wrong or evil. You may have an impulse to kill someone. But you are aware of it in the next instant; you realize that killing is wrong, so you stop and refrain. Is there harm in this? What do you think? Or if you have a thought about stealing something, and that is followed by a stronger recollection that to do so is wrong, and so you refrain from acting on it, is that bad kamma? It’s not that every time you have an impulse you instantly accumulate bad kamma. Otherwise, how could there be any way to liberation? Impulses are merely impulses. Thoughts are merely thoughts. In the first instance, you haven’t created anything yet. The mental impulse is not consummated.This is how it is. Merely having the thoughts is not negative kamma. If we don’t have any thoughts, how will wisdom develop? Some people simply want to sit with a blank mind. That’s wrong understanding.'
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: OCD

Post by tkp67 »

From my own experience with these labels the disorders expressed have intense payloads that effect many people. Sometimes it is incredibly subtle at the same time. The cause and effect of these behaviors is the fruit regardless of volition. Karma derived by volition need not be generated for suffering to be an outcome.

In a discussion about OCD where the behavior can be subconsciously happening but observed through patterns of behavior the concept of karma seems a bit abstract if non consequential (in this context). The problem of OCD still exists. The guilt of some latent culpability should not and to iterate as much necessary. These had all been abolished for me. Personally I don't anguish my mental illnesses as if I developed them as a choice and haven't in decades. They simply are as am I. However and this is the most critical part. Buddhism made me capable of identifying my subconscious drives, triggers and thoughts so I could treat them as volition. Not reporting it perfected but light years from where I was. Perhaps this is part of the experience many are relaying and because they see it more clearly the problem seems larger when in actually it is more accessible which means great progress. As least this is how the experience has presented itself to me.

Of course none of this is in contest just a very different perspective reflective of the severity of those conditions. Many people suffer a level of OCD that they have be able to work with more reasonably often using it to enhance aspects of their lives. I meet many artists with OCD, Doctors as well.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I see Buddhism as tapping into the capacity the mind has to recognize these things and adapt in such a way they can be rectified. I am not saying this particular way or that way just that applied over the term it seems to accomplish what other methods do not.

It is ultimately encouragement from a perspective that has been challenged powerfully by such obstacles.
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Re: OCD

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Sorry, I still have no idea what you are trying to say. I would just again refer to the Ajan Chah quote, which pretty neatly sums up what - I think- would be the de facto Buddhist position towards OCD thoughts.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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