Guru Rinpoche As...

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Sennin
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Sennin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 pm

Here's a crazy idea. :stirthepot:
Let's go do the mantra until our vajras levitate and we have a veritable pure vision of the deity. 8-)

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Crazywisdom
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:24 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:51 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:47 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:30 pm


Well i would say, keep then this great secret inside your Lineage as sealed and don´t proclaim /stamp that as a great truth to others.
I guess if you either aren´t ready for it, then others are never ready to accept that truth.
What “truth”?
See all the before mentioned
It’s all truth? Hmmm...

AHAHAHAHAHA
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:25 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 am
michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

what was the book?
The book I have as a source from 2012 is Teachings on the Practice of Dorje Trolod (p.26) :

First ChNN explains that Ati Muwer is one of the three Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. Then he wrote this:

''When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread the Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod.''

Interestingly, the translation of the short terma, in the same book, also uses 'tiger' and does not define a tigress in a particular state.

However, in the sadhana on p.99 the being is defined clearly as a 'majestic young tigress'.

So, put the two together and we have the young tigress defined as Ati Muwer.

As far as I am concerned this book is part of the donwang.

In terms of the topic, the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, it is important to follow the visualisations given for a practice. There is no point following a Guru whose veracity you doubt and whose empowerments you find faulty.

I will end with ChNN's own words from that book:

''Whichever kind of method you received, apply that. You should not judge which is better or more correct since all are related to a particular transmission''.
Secret text OI!!!
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:30 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:25 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 am
michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am

what was the book?
The book I have as a source from 2012 is Teachings on the Practice of Dorje Trolod (p.26) :

First ChNN explains that Ati Muwer is one of the three Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. Then he wrote this:

''When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread the Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod.''

Interestingly, the translation of the short terma, in the same book, also uses 'tiger' and does not define a tigress in a particular state.

However, in the sadhana on p.99 the being is defined clearly as a 'majestic young tigress'.

So, put the two together and we have the young tigress defined as Ati Muwer.

As far as I am concerned this book is part of the donwang.

In terms of the topic, the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, it is important to follow the visualisations given for a practice. There is no point following a Guru whose veracity you doubt and whose empowerments you find faulty.

I will end with ChNN's own words from that book:

''Whichever kind of method you received, apply that. You should not judge which is better or more correct since all are related to a particular transmission''.
Secret text OI!!!
Already quoted earlier by someone else and certainly not any part which requires secrecy.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:52 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:30 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:25 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 am


The book I have as a source from 2012 is Teachings on the Practice of Dorje Trolod (p.26) :

First ChNN explains that Ati Muwer is one of the three Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. Then he wrote this:

''When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread the Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod.''

Interestingly, the translation of the short terma, in the same book, also uses 'tiger' and does not define a tigress in a particular state.

However, in the sadhana on p.99 the being is defined clearly as a 'majestic young tigress'.

So, put the two together and we have the young tigress defined as Ati Muwer.

As far as I am concerned this book is part of the donwang.

In terms of the topic, the manifestations of Guru Rinpoche, it is important to follow the visualisations given for a practice. There is no point following a Guru whose veracity you doubt and whose empowerments you find faulty.

I will end with ChNN's own words from that book:

''Whichever kind of method you received, apply that. You should not judge which is better or more correct since all are related to a particular transmission''.
Secret text OI!!!
Already quoted earlier by someone else and certainly not any part which requires secrecy.
Bad move buddy. The whole damn thing is a secret
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lelopa
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:53 pm

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:47 am
lelopa wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:44 am
the first time i've read Ati Muwer as the tigress is from a book from 1986.
i thought this teaching came from the Jangter, or Dudjom tradition, because Doc ngakpa chogyam Togden was at this time more connected with Chime Rigdzin Rinp. and the Dudjom lineage... :thinking:

afaik ChNN taught Dorje Drolo the first time in 2012 - but maybe it is from an interwiew with ChNN :shrug:
what was the book?
you've already asked me this and i've already answered.....

the title was
"rainbow of liberated energy"
or something similar
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:04 pm

michaelb wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 pm
The fact that you personally express ChNN's transmission as 'problematic', doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, not to see it as a matter of trust, etc etc, whilst weirdly claiming not to do so, is the problem here. If you have received that empowerment from that 'someone who comes on and makes a claim' it is a most unfortunate path to take..
Honestly, David, i find your emotional over reaction way too much. Malcolm came on here and claimed the Tiger is Ati Muwer.
I did indeed, based on an oral communication from ChNN.
But i am interested in where stories come from and how they emerge.
Perfectly understandable.
we NONE OF US actually know why ChNN taught it. Sure, we can speculate, but we don't really know.
No, we do know why-- he is a great historian, he must have came to the conclusion that the version of the yum story is rather late (it is), and he found a earlier source where A ti Mu Wer manifested as the tiger and found that account more credible than the later tradition. In other words, he believed the version he found to be more credible than later sources, including what is found in the 'Od gsal gsang mdzod cycle.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kirtu » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:59 pm

Sennin wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:07 pm
Here's a crazy idea. :stirthepot:
Let's go do the mantra until our vajras levitate and we have a veritable pure vision of the deity. 8-)
One can have a veritable pure vision of the deity but alas, I have yet to see a vajra levitate.



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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Sennin » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:02 am

Look what y'all done talked up. :lol:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... w/viewform
007.jpg
007.jpg (87.33 KiB) Viewed 1318 times

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:10 am

Sennin wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:02 am
Look what y'all done talked up. :lol:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... w/viewform
007.jpg
O q bueno!
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:49 am

Tashi delek,

The tigress as a subjugated entity can be "true" maybe in the lineage of Namkhai Norbu , but outside that lineage it looses credibility.

There are different visions about that story and one can make a choice which story one can follow.

All stories seem to be based on so called historical "facts", which in the Yungdrung Bön Tradition are not known, and because Bönpos know their own history at the best, other interpretations about Ati Muwer than known in Bön are seen according Bön History NOT and Never as valid.

The story about the different Termas and visions regarding Ati Muwer can be seen as a contradiction, because there is not a one and only authoritative version about that who and what is the tigress.

So i doubt greatly that a Bön Dharmakaya aspect can become a servant in the form of a tigress for riding , but that is a Yungdrung Bön vision which does not reflect to the visions done here by the adherents of Namkhai Norbu.
Ati Muwer is still inside the Refuge Tree of Bön as such and has never left Yungdrung Bön, so if there would be power in the rituals of the tigress as Ati Muwer, that is what i greatly doubt, seen in the visions of Yungdrung Bön.

So here we can split off and can remain in 3 camps:

- The ones who follow the tigress as a form of Ati Muwer
- The ones who follow the tigress as a form of one of the 5 main consorts of Guru Rinpoche
- The ones who don´t agree to the Ati Muwer subjugated form as tigress.

All are "right" i guess so, based on their rights to believe in something.

Here one can see how difficult Tibetan History can be and especially Bön History, which is at best known of course by Bönpos and not so by others/outsiders who do their best too.


P.s;

Will publish the so called "historical facts", that the tigress here mentioned is a subjugated form of Bön Ati Muwer, seen as correct by Namkhai Norbu
inside the world of Bön, guess they are not well informed about this "secret teaching".
It will not contribute to bi lateral respect that is sure. Guess it would be better to have kept this Ati Muwer story, as secret inside information.
If i understood it well that was also the special wish of Namkhai Norbu.
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Aryjna » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:52 am

This may be one of the most repetitive threads to show up here in the last few months.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by heart » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:58 am

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:52 am
This may be one of the most repetitive threads to show up here in the last few months.
+1

/magnus
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:06 pm

kalden yungdrung,

I think, if you're so interested in historical facts, then you should definitely be sure to apply those standards equally to that of Bon. But maybe you are not too interested in doing this, because you'll find that much of the narrative that arose with later Bon, will start to fall apart. That is the problem with Bon.

Anyways, speaking of historical facts:

From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's "The Light of Kailash", Volume 1, chapter V, "The Civilization of Ancient Zhang Zhung", section 7.7., "Pra divination", on page 212, he writes:

"In the ancient Bon tradition of Zhang Zhung, divination through ecstatic possession was performed by invoking the descent in the diviners of Phywa deities, such as Phu-wer, or other powerful deities, such as the Three Protectors of Zhang Zhung, A-ti Mu-wer, Ku-byi Mang-ke, and Ge-khod. As the sBa bzhed Annals specify, this oracular form gradually extended into Tibet, since (SI, I I 6,7): "Horrible deities and Klu really descended into the people."

That is how divination was performed at the time of the Teacher Padma. The existence in modern Tibet of the gNas-chung medium [sku rten] - who prophesies following ecstatic possession by the Dharma Protector rDo-rje Grags-ldan - shows that oracular divination has been uninterruptedly practiced from antiquity until now; this fact can be ascertained by consulting the numerous accounts on the subject.
"

From John Vincent Bellezza's "The Dawn of Tibet: The Ancient Civilization on the Roof of the World", page 227, we can read the following:

"Ati Muwer is another principal god of the Gekhö circle. His Zhang Zhung-language name can probably be translated as "Grandfather Sky King." He is clad in golden armor and brandishes a bow and arrow made of celestial iron. Ati Muwer is depicted riding on the light rays of the red planet Mars, a classic Eurasian war god."

Also from Bellezza: "They appear to have been powerful territorial guardians of the Zhang Zhung kingdom recreated in later times as tantric gods."

No mention of Ati Muwer being a Dharmakaya here. What's more, is that his characteristics is that of a war god, more specifically a protector. He has armor and a weapon.

But note (and this is important) that Ati Muwer along with other deities took possession of oracles for divinatory purposes.

The idea that a Dharmakaya takes possession of anything is complete nonsense and is refuted in all of Buddhadharma. Only worldly gods and deities takes possession of oracles. Yet through historical research we can see that Ati Muwer is recorded as being one of a number of deities that did just that. Meaning that the idea of Ati Muwer as a Dharmakaya, is much more likely an idea that arose with later Bon.

So perhaps one can speculate, that the older Ati Muwer, how Ati Muwer was described in Zhang Zhung Bon, was the Ati Muwer that Guru Padmasambhava met, subjugated, and bound under oath, as Dorje Drollo.

Naturally this as fate for ones protector god is not very flattering, and perhaps then Ati Muwer over time became elevated (through a change of narrative) to that of a Dharmakaya instead of a failed protector god. And so Guru Padmasambhava as Dorje Drollo subjugating Ati Muwer who manifested as the tiger would then be one of the earlier accounts of this part of Guru Padmasambhava's life. That at least corresponds with historical facts.
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The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 am
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:24 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 am
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?
As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:27 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:49 am


So i doubt greatly that a Bön Dharmakaya aspect can become a servant in the form of a tigress for riding , but that is a Yungdrung Bön vision which does not reflect to the visions done here by the adherents of Namkhai Norbu.
Ati Muwer is still inside the Refuge Tree of Bön as such and has never left Yungdrung Bön, so if there would be power in the rituals of the tigress as Ati Muwer, that is what i greatly doubt, seen in the visions of Yungdrung Bön.

In this thread, the Bonpo point of view is irrelevant, as has been pointed out to you several times.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:27 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:22 am
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?
1 Drolo is always on a Tiger to represent his great wrathfulness. Padma Heruka also sits on a tiger throne. GP is lotus family.

2 it’s the subjugation Bonpos prolly don’t like

3 it’s a Tibetanization of Guru Vajra Krodha Lokattara
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:34 pm


As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.
Though Ive never heard of one being transmitted recently.
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:38 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:06 pm
kalden yungdrung,

I think, if you're so interested in historical facts, then you should definitely be sure to apply those standards equally to that of Bon. But maybe you are not too interested in doing this, because you'll find that much of the narrative that arose with later Bon, will start to fall apart. That is the problem with Bon.

Anyways, speaking of historical facts:

From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's "The Light of Kailash", Volume 1, chapter V, "The Civilization of Ancient Zhang Zhung", section 7.7., "Pra divination", on page 212, he writes:

"In the ancient Bon tradition of Zhang Zhung, divination through ecstatic possession was performed by invoking the descent in the diviners of Phywa deities, such as Phu-wer, or other powerful deities, such as the Three Protectors of Zhang Zhung, A-ti Mu-wer, Ku-byi Mang-ke, and Ge-khod. As the sBa bzhed Annals specify, this oracular form gradually extended into Tibet, since (SI, I I 6,7): "Horrible deities and Klu really descended into the people."

That is how divination was performed at the time of the Teacher Padma. The existence in modern Tibet of the gNas-chung medium [sku rten] - who prophesies following ecstatic possession by the Dharma Protector rDo-rje Grags-ldan - shows that oracular divination has been uninterruptedly practiced from antiquity until now; this fact can be ascertained by consulting the numerous accounts on the subject.
"

From John Vincent Bellezza's "The Dawn of Tibet: The Ancient Civilization on the Roof of the World", page 227, we can read the following:

"Ati Muwer is another principal god of the Gekhö circle. His Zhang Zhung-language name can probably be translated as "Grandfather Sky King." He is clad in golden armor and brandishes a bow and arrow made of celestial iron. Ati Muwer is depicted riding on the light rays of the red planet Mars, a classic Eurasian war god."

Also from Bellezza: "They appear to have been powerful territorial guardians of the Zhang Zhung kingdom recreated in later times as tantric gods."

No mention of Ati Muwer being a Dharmakaya here. What's more, is that his characteristics is that of a war god, more specifically a protector. He has armor and a weapon.

But note (and this is important) that Ati Muwer along with other deities took possession of oracles for divinatory purposes.

The idea that a Dharmakaya takes possession of anything is complete nonsense and is refuted in all of Buddhadharma. Only worldly gods and deities takes possession of oracles. Yet through historical research we can see that Ati Muwer is recorded as being one of a number of deities that did just that. Meaning that the idea of Ati Muwer as a Dharmakaya, is much more likely an idea that arose with later Bon.

So perhaps one can speculate, that the older Ati Muwer, how Ati Muwer was described in Zhang Zhung Bon, was the Ati Muwer that Guru Padmasambhava met, subjugated, and bound under oath, as Dorje Drollo.

Naturally this as fate for ones protector god is not very flattering, and perhaps then Ati Muwer over time became elevated (through a change of narrative) to that of a Dharmakaya instead of a failed protector god. And so Guru Padmasambhava as Dorje Drollo subjugating Ati Muwer who manifested as the tiger would then be one of the earlier accounts of this part of Guru Padmasambhava's life. That at least corresponds with historical facts.
Terma doesn’t have to correspond to historical facts, whatever those are. BTW history is just the fables we pick out of the pile of rubble called “the past.” See Walter Benjamin

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... istory.htm
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