America”s Next Civil War

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Malcolm
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America”s Next Civil War

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:55 pm

Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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TharpaChodron
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:36 am

Sounds like Canadian wishful thinking.

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Nemo
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Nemo » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:36 am
Sounds like Canadian wishful thinking.
Canada is a very loyal vassal state. Our deep state and yours have been intimately connected since the Camp X days. I even fought in one of your utterly doomed wars knowing it was preordained to fail. When you sneeze we catch a cold. Our strategic planning revolves around very smart people predicting your future actions. Global warming is a perfect example. Our Conservatives paid for the scientists and arctic research stations that proved it would be an existential threat. When it seemed obvious that you would never take the threat seriously we ramped up our mothballed tar sands operations and silenced our scientists. With those tax revenues was have been quietly hardening our infrastructure against fire, flood and famine, increasing our domestic weapons manufacturing ability with exports and standing up various HUSAR teams (Heavy Urban Search and Rescue). We don't need multiple HUSARS unless we expect multiple massive environmental catastrophes simultaneously. America only makes sense to me when viewed as two countries. One very European and cosmopolitan, the other more like the Philippines. Like a colony within your own borders. The ones who live in the nice educated coastal one seem to not see the other America.

And don't worry about hurting Canadians feelings. We play nationalistic nonsense for the masses just like you but anyone who knows the game understands we might as well be Greenland to most of the world. If we could all leave our bubbles some rational decisions could be made.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:58 pm

Thanks, a great piece.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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TharpaChodron
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:48 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:36 am
Sounds like Canadian wishful thinking.
Canada is a very loyal vassal state. Our deep state and yours have been intimately connected since the Camp X days. I even fought in one of your utterly doomed wars knowing it was preordained to fail. When you sneeze we catch a cold. Our strategic planning revolves around very smart people predicting your future actions. Global warming is a perfect example. Our Conservatives paid for the scientists and arctic research stations that proved it would be an existential threat. When it seemed obvious that you would never take the threat seriously we ramped up our mothballed tar sands operations and silenced our scientists. With those tax revenues was have been quietly hardening our infrastructure against fire, flood and famine, increasing our domestic weapons manufacturing ability with exports and standing up various HUSAR teams (Heavy Urban Search and Rescue). We don't need multiple HUSARS unless we expect multiple massive environmental catastrophes simultaneously. America only makes sense to me when viewed as two countries. One very European and cosmopolitan, the other more like the Philippines. Like a colony within your own borders. The ones who live in the nice educated coastal one seem to not see the other America.

And don't worry about hurting Canadians feelings. We play nationalistic nonsense for the masses just like you but anyone who knows the game understands we might as well be Greenland to most of the world. If we could all leave our bubbles some rational decisions could be made.
That's a response which deserves a better reply than what I can provide atm, but I'll at least try. I disagree the US is on the brink of civil war. Predicting the demise of the US is a hobby for some, but by a civil war? Like with guns and tanks and stuff? Highly unlikely. Is that what you are proposing?

I've lived in most every part of the country, as have many people. I was born and raised in a red state in the midwest, grew up in Texas, lived in New York, California and now the valley of California which is a mix of both extremes of red and blue politics, so I can say I've pretty much seen it all insofar as the disparity in political views held in the US. The truth is current demographics show millennials are decidedly more democrat leaning, the Latino vote is growing day by day and white male supremacy, while it remains in power (regardless of who is president) the shift in US politics is towards a democratic socialist tide. Which is what makes Trump voters freak out and why there's this current nationalist anti-immigration movement. But it's going to fail, as is northern California's Don Quixote dream of becoming its own state called Jefferson.

Even if there were to be this doomsday civil war scenario, the last civil war the US engaged in was the origin of the US military industrial complex, the North and South created war machines in the effort to fight each other which gave the US the means later to become the world's superpower. And now things are far more complex than North and South states.

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Nemo
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Nemo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:57 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:48 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:36 am


Sounds like Canadian wishful thinking.
Canada is a very loyal vassal state. Our deep state and yours have been intimately connected since the Camp X days. I even fought in one of your utterly doomed wars knowing it was preordained to fail. When you sneeze we catch a cold. Our strategic planning revolves around very smart people predicting your future actions. Global warming is a perfect example. Our Conservatives paid for the scientists and arctic research stations that proved it would be an existential threat. When it seemed obvious that you would never take the threat seriously we ramped up our mothballed tar sands operations and silenced our scientists. With those tax revenues was have been quietly hardening our infrastructure against fire, flood and famine, increasing our domestic weapons manufacturing ability with exports and standing up various HUSAR teams (Heavy Urban Search and Rescue). We don't need multiple HUSARS unless we expect multiple massive environmental catastrophes simultaneously. America only makes sense to me when viewed as two countries. One very European and cosmopolitan, the other more like the Philippines. Like a colony within your own borders. The ones who live in the nice educated coastal one seem to not see the other America.

And don't worry about hurting Canadians feelings. We play nationalistic nonsense for the masses just like you but anyone who knows the game understands we might as well be Greenland to most of the world. If we could all leave our bubbles some rational decisions could be made.
That's a response which deserves a better reply than what I can provide atm, but I'll at least try. I disagree the US is on the brink of civil war. Predicting the demise of the US is a hobby for some, but by a civil war? Like with guns and tanks and stuff? Highly unlikely. Is that what you are proposing?

I've lived in most every part of the country, as have many people. I was born and raised in a red state in the midwest, grew up in Texas, lived in New York, California and now the valley of California which is a mix of both extremes of red and blue politics, so I can say I've pretty much seen it all insofar as the disparity in political views held in the US. The truth is current demographics show millennials are decidedly more democrat leaning, the Latino vote is growing day by day and white male supremacy, while it remains in power (regardless of who is president) the shift in US politics is towards a democratic socialist tide. Which is what makes Trump voters freak out and why there's this current nationalist anti-immigration movement. But it's going to fail, as is northern California's Don Quixote dream of becoming its own state called Jefferson.

Even if there were to be this doomsday civil war scenario, the last civil war the US engaged in was the origin of the US military industrial complex, the North and South created war machines in the effort to fight each other which gave the US the means later to become the world's superpower. And now things are far more complex than North and South states.
I don't think anyone expects you to self destruct. Many do expect you to lose reserve currency status in 10 to 20 years. America doesn't have many friends left. Even The Philippines, Japan and S Korea have quietly pivoted to China. Canada is buying a useless pipeline for billions of tax payer dollars just to please them. You are reaching a point where even your vassals dislike you and are hedging their bets. Everyone sees you as a corrupt oligarchy, not a beacon of freedom and prosperity. You have already lost your soft power. You are thought to be not fully trustworthy or a fair dealer anymore. You are the UK in the 1950s and eventually a Suez Crisis hits and you lose the last of your prestige. If we are talking civil war St Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans and Detroit are already there if we are talking death rate by gun fire. They are de facto war zones. No, it probably won't reach the capital or the most protected enclaves. But in those areas the police feel and act exactly like an occupying force in a war zone. The UK didn't self destruct after Suez, but it was never the same either. They just didn't matter anymore. During that time I expect civil unrest in a few regions will require the army to be deployed. ie, a civil war. When I was in the army they were already war gaming this in training exercises in California. So it is at least a possibility. Maybe you just don't care because you are rich enough and white enough that it won't effect you.

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:25 am

The U.S. is so divided now and there is much fear on all sides. The old guard wont give up power easily, and the right-wingers are the populace with most of the arms (many even bury arms for fear of a future confiscation).

Trump has inspired domestic terrorism. If our economy crashes, or something causes Trump to declare marshall law, the unexpected could happen. We are sadly in unprecedented times.

May peace prevail.

DS
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏

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TharpaChodron
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:30 am

Nemo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:57 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:48 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:16 pm

Canada is a very loyal vassal state. Our deep state and yours have been intimately connected since the Camp X days. I even fought in one of your utterly doomed wars knowing it was preordained to fail. When you sneeze we catch a cold. Our strategic planning revolves around very smart people predicting your future actions. Global warming is a perfect example. Our Conservatives paid for the scientists and arctic research stations that proved it would be an existential threat. When it seemed obvious that you would never take the threat seriously we ramped up our mothballed tar sands operations and silenced our scientists. With those tax revenues was have been quietly hardening our infrastructure against fire, flood and famine, increasing our domestic weapons manufacturing ability with exports and standing up various HUSAR teams (Heavy Urban Search and Rescue). We don't need multiple HUSARS unless we expect multiple massive environmental catastrophes simultaneously. America only makes sense to me when viewed as two countries. One very European and cosmopolitan, the other more like the Philippines. Like a colony within your own borders. The ones who live in the nice educated coastal one seem to not see the other America.

And don't worry about hurting Canadians feelings. We play nationalistic nonsense for the masses just like you but anyone who knows the game understands we might as well be Greenland to most of the world. If we could all leave our bubbles some rational decisions could be made.
That's a response which deserves a better reply than what I can provide atm, but I'll at least try. I disagree the US is on the brink of civil war. Predicting the demise of the US is a hobby for some, but by a civil war? Like with guns and tanks and stuff? Highly unlikely. Is that what you are proposing?

I've lived in most every part of the country, as have many people. I was born and raised in a red state in the midwest, grew up in Texas, lived in New York, California and now the valley of California which is a mix of both extremes of red and blue politics, so I can say I've pretty much seen it all insofar as the disparity in political views held in the US. The truth is current demographics show millennials are decidedly more democrat leaning, the Latino vote is growing day by day and white male supremacy, while it remains in power (regardless of who is president) the shift in US politics is towards a democratic socialist tide. Which is what makes Trump voters freak out and why there's this current nationalist anti-immigration movement. But it's going to fail, as is northern California's Don Quixote dream of becoming its own state called Jefferson.

Even if there were to be this doomsday civil war scenario, the last civil war the US engaged in was the origin of the US military industrial complex, the North and South created war machines in the effort to fight each other which gave the US the means later to become the world's superpower. And now things are far more complex than North and South states.
I don't think anyone expects you to self destruct. Many do expect you to lose reserve currency status in 10 to 20 years. America doesn't have many friends left. Even The Philippines, Japan and S Korea have quietly pivoted to China. Canada is buying a useless pipeline for billions of tax payer dollars just to please them. You are reaching a point where even your vassals dislike you and are hedging their bets. Everyone sees you as a corrupt oligarchy, not a beacon of freedom and prosperity. You have already lost your soft power. You are thought to be not fully trustworthy or a fair dealer anymore. You are the UK in the 1950s and eventually a Suez Crisis hits and you lose the last of your prestige. If we are talking civil war St Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans and Detroit are already there if we are talking death rate by gun fire. They are de facto war zones. No, it probably won't reach the capital or the most protected enclaves. But in those areas the police feel and act exactly like an occupying force in a war zone. The UK didn't self destruct after Suez, but it was never the same either. They just didn't matter anymore. During that time I expect civil unrest in a few regions will require the army to be deployed. ie, a civil war. When I was in the army they were already war gaming this in training exercises in California. So it is at least a possibility. Maybe you just don't care because you are rich enough and white enough that it won't effect you.
Maybe I'm rich and white enough it won't affect me? Could be, but I'm also a first generation American whose Latino father fought first-hand discrimination and received awards from LULAC for those efforts. So, stay in your lane, as we say in the US.

If the US becomes irrelevant, which it already has (in your dreams), great. Who cares, certainly not the 60% of Americans who don't even vote.

Do you really think China is a paragon of civil rights, justice and freedom? There are no "friends" in geopolitics and at the end of the day, who do you really expect to support your autonomy. China? Good luck with that.

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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by PeterC » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:02 am

'Civil war' is a slightly ambiguous and emotive term. Factional violence? We're already there, and there's the potential for a lot, lot more

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... portl.html
Prior to the start of a scheduled Aug. 4 demonstration, "the Portland Police Bureau discovered individuals who positioned themselves on a rooftop parking structure in downtown Portland with a cache of firearms," Wheeler said during a City Hall press conference. Berk Nelson, a senior mayoral aide, later said the weapons included "long guns."
The people on the rooftop were members of Patriot Prayer, said Assistant Chief Ryan Lee, who appeared at the press conference with Wheeler and other police officials. Police officers seized the weapons found on the rooftop that day, but they were later given back. No arrests were made because the protesters had not broken any laws and all had licenses to carry concealed weapons, Lee said. Neither Lee nor Wheeler named the people who guns were seized from. 

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Nemo
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Nemo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:08 am

Some info on domestic anti terror activities of the FBi and military.
https://propertyofthepeople.org/documen ... -Antifa-RL

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/ ... -terrorism

Trump giving Presidential Pardons to right wing domestic terrorists.
https://edition-m.cnn.com/2018/07/10/po ... esignation

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Queequeg
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:02 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:57 am
I don't think anyone expects you to self destruct. Many do expect you to lose reserve currency status in 10 to 20 years. America doesn't have many friends left. Even The Philippines, Japan and S Korea have quietly pivoted to China. Canada is buying a useless pipeline for billions of tax payer dollars just to please them. You are reaching a point where even your vassals dislike you and are hedging their bets. Everyone sees you as a corrupt oligarchy, not a beacon of freedom and prosperity. You have already lost your soft power. You are thought to be not fully trustworthy or a fair dealer anymore. You are the UK in the 1950s and eventually a Suez Crisis hits and you lose the last of your prestige. If we are talking civil war St Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans and Detroit are already there if we are talking death rate by gun fire. They are de facto war zones. No, it probably won't reach the capital or the most protected enclaves. But in those areas the police feel and act exactly like an occupying force in a war zone. The UK didn't self destruct after Suez, but it was never the same either. They just didn't matter anymore. During that time I expect civil unrest in a few regions will require the army to be deployed. ie, a civil war. When I was in the army they were already war gaming this in training exercises in California. So it is at least a possibility. Maybe you just don't care because you are rich enough and white enough that it won't effect you.
Losing reserve currency status will be the biggest blow to the US economy. Most Americans are clueless about what this even means.

East Asian allies, (come on now with the "vassals") have not pivoted to China. They're arming themselves up and bracing for the possibility that they will be on their own against China. No one on the periphery of China has ever willingly submitted to them. They've done it grudgingly from time to time when they had no choice. They're still holding out hope that the US continues to assert power in Asia. Your pronouncements are premature.

The loss of soft power - I don't think so. It is becoming diluted but that's a function of the rise of various other soft power beacons. Kids around the world still want to be hip hop dancers and pay money to see blockbuster movies. It still has legs. Oh, and iphones and the internet seem pretty popular still.

The English were able to punch significantly above their weight simply because of the technological difference between industrialized GB and the rest of the world who were living somewhere between the stone age and the iron age. US power is qualitatively different. It is technological. Its organizational. Similar to the Brits, after all, we're Anglos, too. It also comes down to old fashioned dominance based on scale, natural resources, and geographical positioning. These advantages will not hold up as well, but there are only three nations with comparable scale and natural resources - Russia, China, and the US. US dominance will increasingly be neutralized, but the US is not just folding up and going away.

Civil war? Not there. We might have spasms of unrest. Civil war is not out of the question but presently more distant that some people seem to think. Of course, if enough of us have this death wish, it will be hard to stop it.

I know you're not addressing me, but yeah, I'm probably white enough, rich enough, in a region that is relatively stable that will likely weather the storm as many great cities have weathered the rise and fall of empires around them. But I do care about my fellow citizens. Disagreeing with your assessments does not mean I don't. You really ought to hold back on those kinds of aspersions about people. Makes for unpleasant moods around the water cooler.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:02 pm

Civil war? Not there. We might have spasms of unrest. Civil war is not out of the question but presently more distant that some people seem to think. Of course, if enough of us have this death wish, it will be hard to stop it.

From the article:
The technical definition of a civil war is 1,000 battle deaths a year. Armed conflict starts at twenty-five battle deaths a year. What if America is already in an armed conflict and we just haven’t noticed? What if we just haven’t noticed because we’re not used to uprisings happening in places where there’s Bed Bath & Beyond?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm

PeterC wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:02 am
'Civil war' is a slightly ambiguous and emotive term. Factional violence? We're already there, and there's the potential for a lot, lot more

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... portl.html
Prior to the start of a scheduled Aug. 4 demonstration, "the Portland Police Bureau discovered individuals who positioned themselves on a rooftop parking structure in downtown Portland with a cache of firearms," Wheeler said during a City Hall press conference. Berk Nelson, a senior mayoral aide, later said the weapons included "long guns."
The people on the rooftop were members of Patriot Prayer, said Assistant Chief Ryan Lee, who appeared at the press conference with Wheeler and other police officials. Police officers seized the weapons found on the rooftop that day, but they were later given back. No arrests were made because the protesters had not broken any laws and all had licenses to carry concealed weapons, Lee said. Neither Lee nor Wheeler named the people who guns were seized from. 

Sensational character of a story doesn't make it more significant.

Portland is a regional city, with a population of a little less than 625,000 people. If you include the metro area, you have under 2.4 million people. The number of people directly involved was statistically tiny. Even if that event had blown up into a gun battle, it would not have compared to the Rodney King riots. This is not a national problem. Its a regional one, at most. This is a spasm of discontent. There is still way too much money to be made in the US for civil war to actually break out. The danger is acute only because of the ease of access to firearms. They're no match for the police, national guard, let alone the military.

You can bet, all of these groups are under surveillance now. They will be infiltrated. When a decision is made to go after them, these groups will be systematically broken up through a full court press of police and prosecutorial power. People will start doing hard time on tax evasion and various RICO charges and the spirit will be smothered. Revolution loses its sex appeal when you're facing maximum security for thirty years. In the meantime, time will go on.

The danger will come if economic opportunities disappear. To put a metric on that - unemployment of what, 15,20%? 30%? We're not anywhere close to that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:02 pm

Civil war? Not there. We might have spasms of unrest. Civil war is not out of the question but presently more distant that some people seem to think. Of course, if enough of us have this death wish, it will be hard to stop it.

From the article:
The technical definition of a civil war is 1,000 battle deaths a year. Armed conflict starts at twenty-five battle deaths a year. What if America is already in an armed conflict and we just haven’t noticed? What if we just haven’t noticed because we’re not used to uprisings happening in places where there’s Bed Bath & Beyond?
At this time, I don't see any reason to treat the violence as anything other than a criminal matter.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:02 pm

Civil war? Not there. We might have spasms of unrest. Civil war is not out of the question but presently more distant that some people seem to think. Of course, if enough of us have this death wish, it will be hard to stop it.

From the article:
The technical definition of a civil war is 1,000 battle deaths a year. Armed conflict starts at twenty-five battle deaths a year. What if America is already in an armed conflict and we just haven’t noticed? What if we just haven’t noticed because we’re not used to uprisings happening in places where there’s Bed Bath & Beyond?
At this time, I don't see any reason to treat the violence as anything other than a criminal matter.
As long as this is the case, right wing terrorists will continue to be treated with kid gloves. Part of the problem is that we have no domestic terrorism statutes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:55 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:45 pm
At this time, I don't see any reason to treat the violence as anything other than a criminal matter.
As long as this is the case, right wing terrorists will continue to be treated with kid gloves. Part of the problem is that we have no domestic terrorism statutes.
I'm not sure what you mean by kid glove treatment.

As for domestic terrorism statutes - what do you have in mind?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:55 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:45 pm
At this time, I don't see any reason to treat the violence as anything other than a criminal matter.
As long as this is the case, right wing terrorists will continue to be treated with kid gloves. Part of the problem is that we have no domestic terrorism statutes.
I'm not sure what you mean by kid glove treatment.

read it and weep:
In March 2018, a 20-year-old white evangelical Christian named Mark Anthony Conditt laid a series of homemade I.E.D.s around Austin, Tex., in largely minority communities. The bombs killed two African-Americans and injured at least four others over the course of several weeks, terrorizing the city, yet the local authorities preferred to describe Conditt, who committed suicide, as a “very challenged young man.” Also last spring, another white man, 28-year-old Benjamin Morrow, blew himself up in his apartment in Beaver Dam, Wis., while apparently constructing a bomb. Federal investigators said Morrow’s apartment doubled as a “homemade explosives laboratory.” There was a trove of white-supremacist literature in Morrow’s home, according to the F.B.I. But local cops, citing Morrow’s clean-cut demeanor and standout record as a quality-control manager at a local food-processing plant, made sure to note that just because he had this material didn’t mean he was a white supremacist. “He could have been an individual that was doing research,” the local police chief said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/03/maga ... right.html
As for domestic terrorism statutes - what do you have in mind?
Not sure.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:32 pm
read it and weep:
Yeah, I saw that article. It reflects how law enforcement needs to wake up and take note of what's happening. Cops generally don't cruise 4chan and reddit to take the pulse of young misfits. I think this issue is turning up on their radars now. It may take them a few years and possibly some more incidents to fully grasp what's happening. "Islamic terrorists" have taken all the attention and resources for the past generation. Resources will need to be reallocated, priorities rearranged. That's obvious. I hope, sooner than later. I trust that some of those humorless G-men and US Attorneys will get on this and come up with a plan. The question is how quickly they can make it happen. That's really a question of resources and political will. That last bit is the most worrisome part of the equation.
As for domestic terrorism statutes - what do you have in mind?
Not sure.
The way it usually works, they'll try to get them with laws on the books first. That means involving the ATF and the IRS. These groups have been involved in counterfeiting in the past, so that would bring in the Secret Service. If these groups manage any level of competent organization, its just a matter of time before they start running drugs, so there will be that angle sooner or later. It'll be hard to pass laws regulating speech, but speech will be integral to building probable cause for greater surveillance of these organizations. And RICO. Maybe treason laws - unlikely, it would give their message too much credibility. Better to get them on thuggish criminal stuff. They'll treat them like organized crime syndicates. Maybe after a while they might fashion some targeted laws.

Anyway, that's how I hope it plays out. Just a straight criminal approach.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:55 pm

Yeah, I saw that article. It reflects how law enforcement needs to wake up and take note of what's happening. Cops generally don't cruise 4chan and reddit to take the pulse of young misfits. I think this issue is turning up on their radars now. It may take them a few years and possibly some more incidents to fully grasp what's happening. "Islamic terrorists" have taken all the attention and resources for the past generation. Resources will need to be reallocated, priorities rearranged. That's obvious. I hope, sooner than later. I trust that some of those humorless G-men and US Attorneys will get on this and come up with a plan. The question is how quickly they can make it happen. That's really a question of resources and political will. That last bit is the most worrisome part of the equation.
Traditionally the cops and FBI tend go after labor activists, black and native activists, protesters etc. with *much* more gusto than they ever have right-wing types, though there are a few isolated cases. I don't see much hope of this culture changing any time soon, especially not when local police receive federal monies to militarize their entire approach to policing, something which started long before Trump, but i'm sure will only increase. Can you name a time in this country where the police functioned organizationally (not just individually) for the public good in this way? Boy, I can't. It's such a historical nonexistent that I can't even imagine it. Law enforcement tends to be pointed directly at the disadvantaged. Beyond that, i'm not even sure they'e done anything good when they have gone after them...Waco, Ruby Ridge etc. Fighting this kind of thing is as much or more a cultural battle that operates outside of legal institutions.

The way it usually works, they'll try to get them with laws on the books first. That means involving the ATF and the IRS. These groups have been involved in counterfeiting in the past, so that would bring in the Secret Service. If these groups manage any level of competent organization, its just a matter of time before they start running drugs, so there will be that angle sooner or later. It'll be hard to pass laws regulating speech, but speech will be integral to building probable cause for greater surveillance of these organizations. And RICO. They'll treat them like organized crime syndicates. Maybe after a while they might fashion some targeted laws.

Anyway, that's how I hope it plays out. Just a straight criminal approach.

Do you really see this administration pursuing anything like that? Do you even see it being pursued by state governments? I live in one of the most liberal states in the country, and even they have their priorities squarely elsewhere.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: America”s Next Civil War

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:05 pm

The catalyzing force for larger scale armed conflict in the US will be the inevitable recession or depression that is coming in the next decade. Capitalist economies are boom-bust by nature. The busts can be smoothed over by New Deal like policies that provide security for those left destitute. If you remove those safeguards, as the Republicans have done systematically from the presidency of Reagan on (continued by Clinton, incidentally), you end up with large scale unrest. It's a given that this unrest will be violent in a country with as many firearms as the USA.

This will not end well, I am afraid.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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