Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Astus
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

Post by Astus »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:54 pmMaybe WE are the one's that are making the mistake in assigning concrete characteristics, when the text is actually allegorical/metaphorical?
Vedanta is quite clear on the matter, and there Brahman/Atman is the (only) absolutely real entity. If for some reason Tantra contradicts the Vedantin understanding of Atman, it is not stated anywhere in the quoted section.
But if the Hindu Tantric path is so mistaken then how is it that there are 4 Nath Siddhas (5 if you include the kapala siddha Kapalaka) included in the list of 84 Mahasiddhas?
Stories and doctrines do not necessarily match.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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amanitamusc wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:28 pm Sometimes it takes a while to leave one belief for another.Some people will blur them both together and feel
satisfied.
Ain't that the truth!
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:54 pm
But if the Hindu Tantric path is so mistaken then how is it that there are 4 Nath Siddhas (5 if you include the kapala siddha Kapalaka) included in the list of 84 Mahasiddhas?
The Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.

Dr. James Mallinson, an excellent Yoga scholar and Sanskritist of my acquaintance, writes about them here:

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/17972/1/Nath ... aya.FP.pdf

This is a pretty exhaustive article.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:01 pmThe Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.
I am going by the hagiographies and titles in Dowman's book Masters of Mahamudra. Are you saying that he took liberties?
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

Post by Varis »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:01 pm The Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.
While it's true Goraksanatha was not the founder of the Natha sampradaya, AFAIK the earliest references to Matsyendra are Kaula.
Dr. Mallinson has also referred to both Goraksa and Matsyendra as Shaktas in the past.

Regardless, the point still stands; if Hindu tantra is wrong how did Minapa attain Buddhahood if his guru was Shiva and he presumably would have practiced Saiva tantra?
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:01 pmThe Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.
I am going by the hagiographies and titles in Dowman's book Masters of Mahamudra. Are you saying that he took liberties?
It has been thirty-two years since that book was published, and that we have much better informational resources available to us now than we did in 1986, in all areas of historical research on India and Tibet. Dowman's book, in light of modern scholarship, suffers from some anachronisms. It is not a completely reliable guide and one would be wise not to base hard and fast conclusions about the nature of the Mahāsiddhas and their religious affiliations viz. embracing Buddhism and Hinduism together upon his book. Mallinson, as I mentioned, is someone who has spent decades in India studying and practicing yoga, is expert in Sanskrit, and has researched the historical roots of the Naths based on primary material, with reference to the 84 siddhas, and so on.

For example, in his article, The Original Gorakṣaśataka, he notes that there is no use of the term "Nath" to refer to an order of yogis prior to the 18th century. Thus, there are serious problems with the claim that the mahāsiddhas you mention are "naths."
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Varis wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:16 pm
Regardless, the point still stands; if Hindu tantra is wrong how did Minapa attain Buddhahood if his guru was Shiva and he presumably would have practiced Saiva tantra?

The Tibetan text of Mīnapa's story begins by stating that his caste was fisherfolk, his guru was Mahādeva, and his siddhis were mundane siddhis. When you read the story carefully, though it is said he eventually traversed the paths and stages, it does not say that he does so with respect to the instructions he received from Mahādeva. The story is basically charming in its elements. A fisherman gets pulled into the water by a huge fish, and swallowed. Meanwhile, Umadevi is requesting a Dharma teaching from Mahādeva (who as we know, is by now a Buddhist, having been converted by Avalokiteśvara in the Karandavyuha Sūtra, etc. and tamed by Cakrasamvara). Mahādeva says he has a very secret teaching, but it should taught under the ocean, so no on can hear. They repair to their house in the depths of ocean, meanwhile, the fish that has swallowed the fisherman has come to rest below this house, and therefor, the fisherman can hear all that Mahādeva is teaching to Umadevi, who unfortunately falls asleep during the teaching. When Mahādeva realizes that Umadevi was sleeping through the teaching, he looks with the clairvoyance and understands that in the belly of the fish below his house, there is a man. He confers empowerment upon the fish [to empower the man inside it], and the man practices for 12 years in the belly of the fish. The fish is eventually caught, the fisherman is released, and everyone is amazed. The name of the teaching is not mentioned. It is stated Mīnapa, aka Vajrapāda, aka Acinta, works for the benefit of beings for five hundred years.

In the empowerment text composed by one of the Drukchen's on the basis of the empowerment text by Tārānātha, when Mīnapa, aka Acinta, teaches Gorakṣanātha, the name of a text is mentioned, and it is the text Amṛtasiddhi, which was composed by Brahmin Virupa, who in turn is a disciple of Lakṣminkara. According to Mallinson, Amṛtasiddhi is the Buddhist source text upon which all Hathayoga manuals depend.

So, all we really can know, from the earliest text we have on the 84 mahāsiddhas, is that Mīnapa achieved mundane siddhis under the tutelage of Mahādeva, and he eventually attained the state of Khecari, and that according to Tārānātha, the text he taught Gorakṣa is the Buddhist ancestor of Hathayoga.

I should add, there are other instances of Buddhist Vajrayāna traditions that are attributed to Shiva, in Lamdre, for example, where it is clarified that Mahādeva is a disciple of Vajradhara in one specific instructional cycle.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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To what extent is Shiva seen as having any level of realisation in this literature/lineages?
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:03 pm In the empowerment text composed by one of the Drukchen's on the basis of the empowerment text by Tārānātha, when Mīnapa, aka Acinta, teaches Gorakṣanātha, the name of a text is mentioned, and it is the text Amṛtasiddhi, which was composed by Brahmin Virupa, who in turn is a disciple of Lakṣminkara.
Thank you for this! I hadn't heard this before, you cleared up multiple questions I had in the past about this. I found the Buddhist story seemed incomplete when I first read it and now with context it makes sense.

That being said AFAIK all the historical evidence points towards Matsyendranatha having been a Kaula Shakta. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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PSM wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:44 pm To what extent is Shiva seen as having any level of realisation in this literature/lineages?
Tibetan Buddhist Shiva practices range from him being a mundane protector, to a Yidam.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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On another thread someone was very disparaging about Siva practice and vowed never to visit any country with it. I asked for the reason but never received one. Is there a reason why a Vajrayana practitioner would be so vehement about it, that you know of?

It certainly cuts down opportunities for travel!
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Grigoris wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:06 pm
PSM wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:44 pm To what extent is Shiva seen as having any level of realisation in this literature/lineages?
Tibetan Buddhist Shiva practices range from him being a mundane protector, to a Yidam.
I know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam, but in the Nyingma School Siva is an important dharmapala.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pmI know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam...
I do.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:03 pm A fisherman gets pulled into the water by a huge fish, and swallowed.
Strong resemblance to the myth of Jonah and the whale. I guess that must be something about archetypes, although I know we don't go in for that kind of talk around here.
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Grigoris wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pmI know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam...
I do.
In what Buddhist tantra was it taught?
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Grigoris wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:05 pmI know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam...
I do.
Do pray tell........
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Nope.

What I can do, if somebody is genuinely interested, is inform them the next time the wang, lung and tri are being given and they can go and ask their questions in person. I am sure the teacher will be more than happy to answer them.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Astus wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:13 pmStories and doctrines do not necessarily match.
Doctrines and reality do not necessarily match. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:01 pmDr. James Mallinson, an excellent Yoga scholar and Sanskritist of my acquaintance, writes about them here:

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/17972/1/Nath ... aya.FP.pdf
Thank you for this.
The popularity of the siddhas transcended sectarian boundaries, and the siddhas themselves
appear from their legends not to have claimed
allegiance to any particular sects. Because of the
appearance of the names of siddhas associated
with the Nāth tradition in Buddhist lists of
siddhas, such as that of Abhayadattaśrī, some scholars
have postulated Buddhist origins for the Nāths.
There is nothing in the doctrines associated with
the Nāth tradition to support this.
So the Buddhist accounts define them as Buddhists, and the Nath accounts define them as Nath.

No surprise there.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:37 pm So the Buddhist accounts define them as Buddhists, and the Nath accounts define them as Nath.
The Buddhist accounts predate the Nath accounts by some centuries, and this is irrefutable.
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