DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20137
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:39 am

How Will You See the Guru?
BY DZONGSAR KHYENTSE RINPOCHE| JANUARY 12, 2017

Are you able to see your teacher as the Buddha? It’s not easy, says Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, but for the Vajrayana practitioner, this is where the real path begins.
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-will-you- ... c-a812wKyY
The classic explanation is that interaction with the guru will be a direct experience of form as emptiness and emptiness as form; it will be a mingling with the jnanas and kayas. This explanation is not so far-fetched. Just think about how your perception of a person transforms from the moment you meet them as a stranger to when you fall in love to when they become your lover. As your perception changes, the experience changes.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

florin
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by florin » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:39 am
How Will You See the Guru?
BY DZONGSAR KHYENTSE RINPOCHE| JANUARY 12, 2017

Are you able to see your teacher as the Buddha? It’s not easy, says Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, but for the Vajrayana practitioner, this is where the real path begins.
https://www.lionsroar.com/how-will-you- ... c-a812wKyY
The classic explanation is that interaction with the guru will be a direct experience of form as emptiness and emptiness as form; it will be a mingling with the jnanas and kayas. This explanation is not so far-fetched. Just think about how your perception of a person transforms from the moment you meet them as a stranger to when you fall in love to when they become your lover. As your perception changes, the experience changes.


I think lots of people have problems with what does this buddha concept mean. They need to define first what do they mean by seeing your guru as the Buddha.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

zenman
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:24 pm

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by zenman » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:20 pm

Copied from Facebook,

”Do not confuse the archetype of teacherness with the personality talking (to you) at the moment. Just as it is important that you don't confuse your own innate buddhanature with the personality you are manifesting as at the moment. Guru Yoga probably has more misunderstanding than almost any other subject and yet it is necessary for the transmission of dzogchen, for the transmission of lineage.

When Rinpoche (Lama Wangdor Rinpoche) and I were first travelling together and I was translating for him. You know that line, ”To merge your mind with the teacher”. Yeah well, we had a little oopsy, You see we tried to do that with our personalities. He got my hot flashes. I was having menopause at the time and I couldn't eat sea food. He is quite (sickened) by sea food. And we were both most uncomfortable because instead of both of us merging our minds with the lineage and the essence of teacher, we ended up merging the confusedness of our transitory personalities with each other and giving ourselves both very severe psychic indigestion.

It's not Lena the person, that you merge your mind with when you merge your mind with the teacher, so that it is possible to transmit nature of mind which can only be shown mind to mind. It's not little me. What you are doing is recognising that your own innate buddhanature and my innate buddhanature is the same buddhanature.

At the end of a teaching it is traditional to come up and offer a khata, a white scarf. The word khata means incorruptible, un-frak-up-able, unbreakable. It refers to your buddhanature that can't be damaged no matter how confused you are. When you're offering that scarf to the teacher, you're offering the best thing about you. Your giving the totality of your own innate enlightenment, you're offering it to the teacher. The teacher accepts your offering and then offers it back to you to acknowledge that it is the same buddhanature and we share it.

So please don't try to merge your minds with an old leather dyke sitting up here. That will seriously give you indigestion. It's the lineage, it's the transmission, passed down teacher to student, teacher to student from beginningless time that you are invited to participate in and participating in that is samaya, a relationship of mutual openness and participation. It's not about whether your personality is able to perfectly participate with my personality because no... No way! It's about whether your buddhanature can rest in comfort with my buddhanature in the recognition that it isn't two buddhanatures but it is simply buddhanature. So don't get all twisted out of shape about your personality and my personality, and his personality and her personality. They're just personalities! They're just passing through. They're all frak up. It's the nature of personalitities to be confused, don't mind it. Go past that, both inward and outward. Guru Yoga is very important but don't confuse it by putting a person on pedestal.”

- Lama Lena

florin
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by florin » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:50 pm

zenman wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:20 pm
Copied from Facebook,

”Do not confuse the archetype of teacherness with the personality talking (to you) at the moment. Just as it is important that you don't confuse your own innate buddhanature with the personality you are manifesting as at the moment. Guru Yoga probably has more misunderstanding than almost any other subject and yet it is necessary for the transmission of dzogchen, for the transmission of lineage.

When Rinpoche (Lama Wangdor Rinpoche) and I were first travelling together and I was translating for him. You know that line, ”To merge your mind with the teacher”. Yeah well, we had a little oopsy, You see we tried to do that with our personalities. He got my hot flashes. I was having menopause at the time and I couldn't eat sea food. He is quite (sickened) by sea food. And we were both most uncomfortable because instead of both of us merging our minds with the lineage and the essence of teacher, we ended up merging the confusedness of our transitory personalities with each other and giving ourselves both very severe psychic indigestion.

It's not Lena the person, that you merge your mind with when you merge your mind with the teacher, so that it is possible to transmit nature of mind which can only be shown mind to mind. It's not little me. What you are doing is recognising that your own innate buddhanature and my innate buddhanature is the same buddhanature.

At the end of a teaching it is traditional to come up and offer a khata, a white scarf. The word khata means incorruptible, frak, unbreakable. It refers to your buddhanature that can't be damaged no matter how confused you are. When you're offering that scarf to the teacher, you're offering the best thing about you. Your giving the totality of your own innate enlightenment, you're offering it to the teacher. The teacher accepts your offering and then offers it back to you to acknowledge that it is the same buddhanature and we share it.

So please don't try to merge your minds with an old leather dyke sitting up here. That will seriously give you indigestion. It's the lineage, it's the transmission, passed down teacher to student, teacher to student from beginningless time that you are invited to participate in and participating in that is samaya, a relationship of mutual openness and participation. It's not about whether your personality is able to perfectly participate with my personality because no... No way! It's about whether your buddhanature can rest in comfort with my buddhanature in the recognition that it isn't two buddhanatures but it is simply buddhanature. So don't get all twisted out of shape about your personality and my personality, and his personality and her personality. They're just personalities! They're just passing through. They're all frak up. It's the nature of personalitities to be confused, don't mind it. Go past that, both inward and outward. Guru Yoga is very important but don't confuse it by putting a person on pedestal.”

- Lama Lena

Very clear. Thank you.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:42 pm

Guru Yoga probably has more misunderstanding than almost any other subject and yet it is necessary for the transmission of dzogchen, for the transmission of lineage.
I think that’s accurate.
:good:
They need to define first what do they mean by seeing your guru as the Buddha.
Another good posting.
:good:
This thread is off to a roaring start!
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1137
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Nemo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm

I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?

The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing.

User avatar
Yavana
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Yavana » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:08 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm
I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?

The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing.
According to the doctrine of my own school, as I understand it, the Tibetan schools represent incomplete teachings... And yet I can't help but feel like the resistance that DJKR is getting bodes less ill for the Tibetans than it does for the Western society that's rejecting him. Perhaps the best days of the West truly are behind us, as many suggest these days. He seems like such an earnest teacher. Maybe it's just the declining Anglosphere and our "WEIRD" demands.

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm
I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?
Sakyamuni skipped out on his wife & kid with a completely lame excuse—until it wasn’t of course.

If I saw some guy I personally know do that I’d have some very crusty opinions about his character.
The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing
The point is well taken. Perfect Buddhas like Sakyamuni are few and far between. For people today imperfect will have to do.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:11 pm

The article by DKR is good.
It is important to keep in mind that everything one understands must be understood within a context.
This includes essays by teachers such as DKR, it includes the sutras, and it includes how we relate to out root lamas,
which is at all times a very personal and individual thing.
For some people (and this is often within the context of the cultural traditions in which they grew up),
the prescribed "Tibetan" style of seeing the teacher with selfless devotion comes easily,
and for others, (reinforced by the stories of Milarepa and other masters) what they imagine as "devotion" may seem unreasonable.
But that's okay. And if it does, then it should. That's the reality of what you are working with.
The mistake a lot of students make is in thinking that devotion only has one shape, one outward form.
They see their fellow sangha members "bowing and scraping" all the time, rushing to serve cups of tea with heads bowed,
...students who behave like 10 year-olds obsessing over photos of their favorite dreamy boy-bands
all that stuff, these are appearences in the mind. And people experience these appearances, and think, "really That's what I am supposed to do?"

But that's not the point. It may be like that for those people, and of course, since it is, that's what they do, and that's what you see.
What you don't see is when students mull over the teachings hour after hour, like a zen monk pondering a koan.
That's internal. You can't see it. Some of the students serving tea are doing that, contemplating the words of their teachers,
and there are others are just serving tea. The teachings go in one ear and out the other.
But that internal work, that is the real devotion. Your teacher tells you something like, "see your mind as space",
and you think about that and meditate on that. That's seeing your lama as the Buddha. That's not wasting a valuable teaching.

Nearly every sutra starts with someone asking the Buddha a question.
Those who were devoted to him demonstrated their respect for his wisdom by questioning everything.
What lama doesn't enjoy a debate? That is also a sign of respect, of devotion.

We think of handing over all our trust as a foreign concept, an Indian Yogi thing, but it isn't. We do it every day.
We put all of our money in banks. We drive our cars on the freeway. We eat at restaurants.
Every day, we put our lives into the hands of others, and don't even think twice about it.

But, I think, in a way, the real devotion to the teacher is a reflection of how honest we are with ourselves.
If you know you are not Milarepa, then be honest with that, and don't pretend to be Milarepa.
If it is your nature to shake hands, then when you meet your teacher, bow...and extend your hand.
If you high-five, then high-five, and if you want, you can even visualize that as the five buddha families or whatever.
Devotion to the teacher doesn't mean, "I'm going to act like a Tibetan now" (unless you are Tibetan).
It means not lying to yourself, and thus, not lying to your teacher.
It is a rare student who surrenders self-deception and pretentious bullshit.
But that's what "utter devotion" means.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20137
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:10 pm

A number of off-topic posts about DKR were removed.

Please stay on topic by discussing the contents of the article.

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:32 pm

In the middle of the Lama Norlha drama I was told the following.
in the Guru Yoga what you’re really devoted to is the Dharmakaya. There are two analogies used to illustrate this.

The first is that the Dharmakaya is like sunlight and the lama is like a magnifying glass. The magnifying glass can collect and focus the sunlight so that it can set a piece of paper on fire. Your practice is like the piece of paper in this analogy.

The second analogy is that the sunlight is like snow on a mountain. Your devotion is like the sun which melts the snow. The lama is like a pipeline that delivers the melted snow to you.
Not a word for word quote, but I don’t think I’ve misrepresented what was said.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue that your personality (a.k.a.ego) is not your essential nature, these analogies make it clear that Guru Yoga is not about making a personality cult.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

User avatar
_R_
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:34 pm

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by _R_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:27 am

If you have read sutras from all the three turning of the wheel, one should have quite clear conception what Buddha is and what Buddha is capable of. Because of our karmic obscurations, we cant see our guru like Ananda did, or Manjushri. Luckily, we have enough merit to have instructions to generate faith, which should help us leap over our sense defilements. So that we gain blessings of Buddha who is no other than our root guru.

I'm assuming here that all the necessary ground work is already done etc.

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 am

florin wrote:....one should have quite clear conception what Buddha is and what Buddha is capable of
Okay, I’ll bite. What’s your idea?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

User avatar
_R_
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:34 pm

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by _R_ » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am

smcj wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 am
....one should have quite clear conception what Buddha is and what Buddha is capable of
Okay, I’ll bite. What’s your idea?
You know, there's quite excellent description in mahayanauttaratantrashastra of all the bodhisattva levels etc.

muni
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by muni » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am

The mistake a lot of students make is in thinking that devotion only has one shape, one outward form.
They see their fellow sangha members "bowing and scraping" all the time, rushing to serve cups of tea with heads bowed,
That sounds more like attachment to name-form-importance. Perhaps therefore some Masters are kindly asking to not bow. Attachment to Nirmanakaya?

I think when we see a human teaching, it is difficult to experience: ***Buddha***

There arises all kind of opinions by own karmic stains on which we decide this is "a real Guru". While Devotion needs no curriculum vitae and is not blind at all, recognition is by own clarity. Perhaps therefore is said study first for oneself, reflect…..some purification may be, and when time is there the Guru "will appear"? And that is not the same as go to a famous well known master and you have the warranty to get the real Dharma, no matter how confused we are. I think we may be surrounded by thousand Gurus or more but we just don't see, don't know, are too busy locked in own karmic perceptions. But the good news, it is temporary. courage.
Sorry, not by Dzongsar Rinpoche;
The wisdom of all buddhas, one taste with the great bliss dharmakaya,

Is itself the ultimate nature of all kind gurus.

I beseech you, Guru, dharmakaya,

Please guide me always without separation, in this life, future lives, and the bardo.
:buddha1:



To awaken, =>own mind is Buddha.....
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Vasana » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:03 pm

zenman wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:20 pm
Copied from Facebook,

”Do not confuse the archetype of teacherness with the personality talking (to you) at the moment. Just as it is important that you don't confuse your own innate buddhanature with the personality you are manifesting as at the moment. Guru Yoga probably has more misunderstanding than almost any other subject and yet it is necessary for the transmission of dzogchen, for the transmission of lineage.
[...]
- Lama Lena
Always worth highlighting the teaching on the 4 reliances in discussions on relating with the Guru. I think since we are symultaneously personas and practitioners,while often leaning towards the persona side, we are naturally more conditioned to relate with the Guru as a persona rather than in their wisdom appearance aspect.

It takes a lot of reminding ourselves that the essence of the Guru is the wisdom and method they are imparting and introducing and that the 2 rupa-kayas are completely circumstantial in both appearance and presentation of the methods and wisdom.
  • Four reliances

    The four reliances (Skt. catuḥpratisaraṇa; Tib. རྟོན་པ་བཞི་, tönpa shyi, Wyl. rton pa bzhi) —
    • Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality (gang zag la mi rton/ chos la rton);

      Rely on the meaning, not just on the words (tshig la mi rton/ don la rton);

      Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one (drang don la mi rton/ nges don la rton);

      Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind (rnam shes la mi rton/ ye shes la rton).
    These were taught by the Buddha shortly before his passing away in sutras such as the Sutra of the Teaching of Akshayamati and the Sutra of the Questions of the Naga King Anavatapta. They are commented upon in works such as Asanga's Stages of Spiritual Practice.
  • _R_ wrote:
    Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am
    smcj wrote:
    Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 am
    ....one should have quite clear conception what Buddha is and what Buddha is capable of
    Okay, I’ll bite. What’s your idea?
    You know, there's quite excellent description in mahayanauttaratantrashastra of all the bodhisattva levels etc.
    The technical abidharma exposition for what distinguishes a Buddha is beyond the 10 levels although the Bodhisattvas having partially purified their obscurations have a certain degree of these qualities.

    The dharmakaya has the 10 powers, the four fearlessness, and the 18 distinctive qualities etc
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by Vasana » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:26 pm

On the last of the 4 reliances it says that we should rely on wisdom mind or pristine consciousness (ye shes) rather than ordinary mind (nam shes)

A completely realized Buddha/Guru does not experience the consciousness of ordinary mind but can still know the signs and marks that beings grasp at and hence teach them accordingly.

Does it mean that our guru is not a Buddha if they still (appear to or actually ) experience ordinary mind? You could perhaps argue either way - I think for those who find it difficult to make the devotional pure-vision leap without it being contrived we can rely on logic and see that so long as your teacher has higher realization than you, has a lineage and can directly introduce you to your state and methods to realise it then at the very least, they are expressing the activities of the Buddhas and Vidyadharas of past present and future even if it seems to us that their completely ripened qualities aren't always manifest to us. Pure vision would be a better option but seeing our gurus as those who carry out the activities of the Buddhas should still increase our devotion and appreciation.

If we can see our guru as Buddha then by that token we should also be able to see sentient beings as Buddhas, albeit, temporarily obscured Buddhas. Maybe an equally difficult practice is to do what Bodhisattva Never disparaging did and relate with all beings as Buddhas to be.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:51 pm

:ban:
_R_ wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 am
smcj wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 am
....one should have quite clear conception what Buddha is and what Buddha is capable of
Okay, I’ll bite. What’s your idea?
You know, there's quite excellent description in mahayanauttaratantrashastra of all the bodhisattva levels etc.
That’s my favorite Shasta, even though I haven’t thoroughly studied it yet. The implications are epic. I think it deserves its own thread, if not it’s own forum. Hopefully I’ll get at least a working knowledge of it this year.

The way I see it, the teachings on emptiness take us step by step out of unawareness (empiricism). Maitreyayana then finally points us in the direction of what is true.
——-
I liked that last part so much I just added It to my signature. Might as well let people know where I’m coming from! :twothumbsup:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:10 pm

Nemo wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:45 pm
I think an interesting question is can an asshole introduce you to the nature of mind?

The answer is yes. I find this both troubling and intriguing.
i agree. But they apparently looks like an asshole. Look at the great Siddha Chogyal Trungpa histories and his asshole behaviour for example, or the mithyc and uninhibited Siddha/Mahasiddha Drukpa Kunley and his dunken sex machine stories, or the Ra Lotsawa histories of destruction...

For some, this records are annoying... for me they where until i understood the meaning of "going beyhond" and an important difference between the Mahayana and Vajrayana.

I agree, the answer is yes. But one must examine further because apparently one could see this beings as assholes without reason, but there is certainly a reason, all of them where teachers and attained high realization. Problem is that one can mistake and consider ordinary assholes to be supramundane assholes, lol.

smcj
Posts: 6311
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: DKR - How Will You See the Guru?

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:30 pm

Problem is that one can mistake and consider ordinary assholes to be supramundane assholes, lol.
Bingo. And I personally cannot offer a foolproof answer to that problem.

A buddy of mine suggests using the 8 worldly dharmas as a predictor. If you can predict a lama’s future actions based on winning(+) or losing(-) when it comes to (1)money, (2)sex, (3)power, or (4)prestige then stay away. (2x4=8)

I guess the traditional take is caveat emptor for 12 years.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cinnabar, Google [Bot], PeterC, ratna, Shimali and 129 guests