Empowerment needed for tummo?

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Oklahoma
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Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Oklahoma » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:04 pm

I have a question. I am contemplating attending one of Tulku Lobsang s tummo retreats which are offered publicly. Another option is the retreat this year with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.
I emailed the secretary of an upcoming Tulku Lobsang tummo retreat and was told no empowerment will be given for tummo, and that none is needed. The lama will teach basic postures, breathing and visualizations.
I am not doubting Tulku Lobsangs lineage, though I have never met him, but, based on my incomplete understanding, tummo comes with a Vajrayogini or similar empowerment if I’m not mistaken.
...or does it need to?
Can tummo be taught and transmitted without an empowerment to attain results, or, are these public retreats only meant for the masses for health benefits only?
And does anyone know if Tenzin Wangyal provides an empowerment for his retreats, assuming one is needed?
Otherwise does the oral instruction itself from either lama constitute an oral transmission which is all that is needed?
Thanks

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Adamantine
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm

Oklahoma wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:04 pm
I have a question. I am contemplating attending one of Tulku Lobsang s tummo retreats which are offered publicly. Another option is the retreat this year with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.
I emailed the secretary of an upcoming Tulku Lobsang tummo retreat and was told no empowerment will be given for tummo, and that none is needed. The lama will teach basic postures, breathing and visualizations.
I am not doubting Tulku Lobsangs lineage, though I have never met him, but, based on my incomplete understanding, tummo comes with a Vajrayogini or similar empowerment if I’m not mistaken.
...or does it need to?
Can tummo be taught and transmitted without an empowerment to attain results, or, are these public retreats only meant for the masses for health benefits only?
And does anyone know if Tenzin Wangyal provides an empowerment for his retreats, assuming one is needed?
Otherwise does the oral instruction itself from either lama constitute an oral transmission which is all that is needed?
Thanks
Firstly, as both those teachers are Bonpo (mainly—in the case of T Lobsang he studied a bit of Gelug Buddhism too) you probably should post this in the Bon sub forum, customs regarding Yidams and Wangs will certainly be unique to the Bon tradition and Buddhist corollaries don’t apply. Secondly, it seems that T Lobsang has recently been accused of some sexual abuse, which accusations were addressed in a recent European meeting with HHDL. So until all of that becomes further clarified, you may want to tread with caution. In the Buddhist Nyingma Tersar tradition I’m most familiar with, you should ideally have empowerment into the Yidam which is relied upon in the Tummo practice, the practice itself being a part of a terma cycle related to that deity. This may vary widely across traditions and lineages.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:44 am

You require a Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment such as Heruka and Vajrayogini to practise tummo meditation.

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Adamantine
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:53 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:44 am
You require a Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment such as Heruka and Vajrayogini to practise tummo meditation.
Thad’s according to Gelug? In which case T Lobsang must be
Following a Bonpo etiquette, as I suspected.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Grigoris
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:24 am

I don't know if you need empowerment for tummo per se, but in the Karma Kagyu you need to have finished Ngondro, something which requires at least two empowerments anyway.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Sennin » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:51 am

In nirrutara-yoga tantra one relies on the empowerment into the mandala of a deity to practice tummo. In Lamdre there are 18 different methods of tummo but they all depend on initiation.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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bryandavis
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by bryandavis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:37 pm

One could also receive the oral instructions on tummo from Lama Garchen Rinpoche in the form of Om Ah Hum / Vajra Recitation he openly gives at almost every teaching, be it in person or webcast. At times this is conjunct with an empowerment and at other times it is just a subject he his speaking on.

:cheers:

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Sennin » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:01 pm

bryandavis wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:37 pm
One could also receive the oral instructions on tummo from Lama Garchen Rinpoche in the form of Om Ah Hum / Vajra Recitation he openly gives at almost every teaching, be it in person or webcast. At times this is conjunct with an empowerment and at other times it is just a subject he his speaking on.

:cheers:
:twothumbsup:
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

Oklahoma
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Oklahoma » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks everyone for your replies. I’ve also added a post with a similar question in the bon forum since a member here had recommended I do that as quite possibly the bonpos have a different way of doing things.
But I should be able to make some informed decisions hopefully here soon.
Oh, and as this was my first time on the forum I mistakenly posted this in the Mahamudra section without realizing it. Oops!
But again, thanks everyone.

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by yagmort » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:36 pm

Sennin wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:51 am
...In Lamdre there are 18 different methods of tummo but they all depend on initiation.
Sennin, could you please elaborate? if possible, list all 18, please, or give a link?

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Matylda » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:58 pm

yagmort wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:36 pm
Sennin wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:51 am
...In Lamdre there are 18 different methods of tummo but they all depend on initiation.
Sennin, could you please elaborate? if possible, list all 18, please, or give a link?
Sennin do not do it...

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:49 pm

Tummo is really a sort of general term, with many methods, etc.

It is most properly understood as a completion stage instruction, and like all completion stage instructions from HYT, it comes from the Tantras. In this case, mainly Hevajra and Cakrasamvara Tantras, though you will also find some material in other tantras.

It's true that some teachers will give teachings on some forms of tummo outside of the "Two Stages" approach. Of course, it's also true that you can watch YouTube vids of Mr. Hof sitting in the snow in his shorts. Context is everything, I think. The purpose of Tummo is to attain Buddhahood, just as is all Buddhist practice. More specifically, though, tummo serves to create a mental state which is conducive to certain kinds of insight meditation. Again, there are a lot of different methods and instructions that can be called "tummo," but when you are talking about Naropa's Yogas, it's pretty essential that you have empowerment and have practiced intensive yidam practice, etc. You also must guard your samayas. In Niguma's system, there is in fact a "stand-alone" empowerment for tummo, as there is for all the "yogas" of Nigu chu druk. So even if one has empowerment into Samvara or Hevajra, for instance, to practice the Shangpa Tummo you need to get the specific empowerment. It's actually more properly a "blessing ceremony," like most of the Shangpa transmissions.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:35 pm

Informative post, thanks for that Cone.
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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:00 pm

In DC of ChNNR Tumo is found in some deity practice.It is also taught as a preliminary practice on its own and also in yantra yoga.
So Direct Introduction is needed.

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:08 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:49 pm
Tummo is really a sort of general term, with many methods, etc.

It is most properly understood as a completion stage instruction, and like all completion stage instructions from HYT, it comes from the Tantras. In this case, mainly Hevajra and Cakrasamvara Tantras, though you will also find some material in other tantras.

It's true that some teachers will give teachings on some forms of tummo outside of the "Two Stages" approach. Of course, it's also true that you can watch YouTube vids of Mr. Hof sitting in the snow in his shorts. Context is everything, I think. The purpose of Tummo is to attain Buddhahood, just as is all Buddhist practice. More specifically, though, tummo serves to create a mental state which is conducive to certain kinds of insight meditation. Again, there are a lot of different methods and instructions that can be called "tummo," but when you are talking about Naropa's Yogas, it's pretty essential that you have empowerment and have practiced intensive yidam practice, etc. You also must guard your samayas. In Niguma's system, there is in fact a "stand-alone" empowerment for tummo, as there is for all the "yogas" of Nigu chu druk. So even if one has empowerment into Samvara or Hevajra, for instance, to practice the Shangpa Tummo you need to get the specific empowerment. It's actually more properly a "blessing ceremony," like most of the Shangpa transmissions.
Superb post! Thank you Cone.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by haha » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:55 pm

yagmort wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:36 pm
Sennin wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:51 am
...In Lamdre there are 18 different methods of tummo but they all depend on initiation.
Sennin, could you please elaborate? if possible, list all 18, please, or give a link?
During the second empowerment, it is read out or explained. I may be wrong, nor do I know the number; there were step by step methods. You can find the book in amazon.com but those parts would be only for them who have received Lam dre. The principle of tummo in all traditions is just the same.

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by yagmort » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:21 pm

thank you.

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Re: Empowerment needed for tummo?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:50 pm

As this thread is starting to wander into samaya breaking turf, I will lock it and anybody that wishes to provide yagmort with further information can do so via personal message.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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