Facts

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Grigoris
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Facts

Post by Grigoris » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:13 pm

facts.jpg
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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anjali
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Re: Facts

Post by anjali » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:19 pm

To turn a slogan on its head, Unreality bites. ;)
Image

joy&peace
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Re: Facts

Post by joy&peace » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:59 pm

Lol Anjali :D True. .
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:07 am

haha cute comic; aww poor facts...

It is messy confusing muddles when opinions are mixed in with facts, best to be avoided.
Definitely a valuable skill is to be able to separate facts from opinions and fictions.
All the more important to have evidences and proof to verify the facts. Reality truly is a great teacher.

But the ability to measure and validate a fact is subjective and relative to one's own senses, isn't it?
For example a blind man can say a green apple has no colors because he cannot see or measure it!
Or take quantum physics, where new scientific discovers might disprove or modify old theories; its like the more you discover, the more you don't know and possibly un-learn! :rolling:

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Re: Facts

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:16 am

Or take quantum physics, where new scientific discovers might disprove or modify old theories; its like the more you discover, the more you don't know and possibly un-learn
That’s also how I see the progressively deeper views of emptiness up to Madhaymaka. At that point you can actually see for yourself there isn’t any logical/empirical way to see things.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Grigoris
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Re: Facts

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:26 am

well wisher wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:07 am
But the ability to measure and validate a fact is subjective and relative to one's own senses, isn't it?
There is this thing called consensus.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:06 pm

[quote=Grigoris post_id=482840 time=1549963601 user_id=390]
[quote="well wisher" post_id=482826 time=1549937257 user_id=11145]But the ability to measure and validate a fact is subjective and relative to one's own senses, isn't it?
[/quote]There is this thing called consensus.
[/quote]

Agreed, wise sir Grigoris! :twothumbsup:

I believe most of us can easily agree to simple basic facts in life: like how non-blind people would see the same object in the same way: a fruit is a fruit, a statue is statue, etc.
And how birth,aging,illness and death are all unavoidable facts for a human life... etc.

Established common simple facts. Dictionary and encyclopedias.

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Re: Facts

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:22 pm

well wisher wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:07 am

Or take quantum physics, where new scientific discovers might disprove or modify old theories; its like the more you discover, the more you don't know and possibly un-learn! :rolling:
Well, it seems that way, but that’s only because you’re taught in a process of progressive de-simplification.

When you’re, say, ten or twelve, you write “f=mv” in a physics test, and the teacher marks it correct.

A few years later if you write that, it’s wrong, because you should be writing “df = m dv”. What you were taught earlier was an approximation that works under certain circumstances: now you’re learning the more general case.

Then a few years later, that’s wrong too, because you should be writing Del f = etc etc (lack of notation tools here), which itself is the more general case of the previous simplification you learned.

Then you get to university and you’re looking at the behavior of objects smaller than the Planck distance, and of course the approximations you learned earlier don’t work here, and your perspective again broadens.

This doesn’t mean f=mv was *wrong*. It worked perfectly well within the conditions where you were applying it, and still does. What you’re learning subsequently is just a more general statement of the relationship.

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Grigoris
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Re: Facts

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:21 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:22 pm
Well, it seems that way, but that’s only because you’re taught in a process of progressive de-simplification.

When you’re, say, ten or twelve, you write “f=mv” in a physics test, and the teacher marks it correct.

A few years later if you write that, it’s wrong, because you should be writing “df = m dv”. What you were taught earlier was an approximation that works under certain circumstances: now you’re learning the more general case.

Then a few years later, that’s wrong too, because you should be writing Del f = etc etc (lack of notation tools here), which itself is the more general case of the previous simplification you learned.

Then you get to university and you’re looking at the behavior of objects smaller than the Planck distance, and of course the approximations you learned earlier don’t work here, and your perspective again broadens.

This doesn’t mean f=mv was *wrong*. It worked perfectly well within the conditions where you were applying it, and still does. What you’re learning subsequently is just a more general statement of the relationship.
:good:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:22 pm

Yeah good points, the context and scope of the facts being applied is important consideration too, as well as the intention of the facts being used for.
By those points then, the approximations of measurements and numbers for the sake of convenience would not be considered as a lie, it would be a reasonable fact for the sake of applied science for daily use.

It is no good when its used to purposely mislead or coerce people into some selfish harmful goals over others.

But you still need the 5 aggregate senses (eyes,ears,nose,mouth.body,mind) .. etc to be able to experience those facts
And to the point of the deceased, those worldly facts would fade away and no longer matters.

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Yavana
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Re: Facts

Post by Yavana » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:33 pm

well wisher wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:22 pm
Yeah good points, the context and scope of the facts being applied is important consideration too, as well as the intention of the facts being used for.
By those points then, the approximations of measurements and numbers for the sake of convenience would not be considered as a lie, it would be a reasonable fact for the sake of applied science for daily use.

It is no good when its used to purposely mislead or coerce people into some selfish harmful goals over others.

But you still need the 5 aggregate senses (eyes,ears,nose,mouth.body,mind) .. etc to be able to experience those facts
And to the point of the deceased, those worldly facts would fade away and no longer matters.
Death is inevitable! Fear and psychological suffering aren't!

:mrgreen:

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:52 pm

[quote=Yavana post_id=483031 time=1550090005 user_id=8018]
[quote="well wisher" post_id=483030 time=1550089342 user_id=11145]
Yeah good points, the context and scope of the facts being applied is important consideration too, as well as the intention of the facts being used for.
By those points then, the approximations of measurements and numbers for the sake of convenience would not be considered as a lie, it would be a reasonable fact for the sake of applied science for daily use.

It is no good when its used to purposely mislead or coerce people into some selfish harmful goals over others.

But you still need the 5 aggregate senses (eyes,ears,nose,mouth.body,mind) .. etc to be able to experience those facts
And to the point of the deceased, those worldly facts would fade away and no longer matters.
[/quote]
Death is inevitable! Fear and psychological suffering aren't!

:mrgreen:
[/quote]

Well said! That one of the key goal of our Buddhist practices isn't? :twothumbsup:
To see through these negative emotions in our minds as being useless and surpass them: including fear, hatred, envy, jealousy ... etc.
And to see through the useless lies and uphold the beneficial truth.

Then be easily able to identify the fear-monging hateful condemners, so we do not participate in similar non-beneficial acts, and hopefully help them correct their erroneous ways to more positive & beneficial ways instead.

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Yavana
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Re: Facts

Post by Yavana » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:54 pm

well wisher wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:52 pm
To see through these negative emotions in our minds as being useless and surpass them: including fear, hatred, envy, jealousy ... etc.
And to see through the useless lies and uphold the beneficial truth.

Then be easily able to identify the fear-monging hateful condemners, so we do not participate in similar non-beneficial acts, and hopefully help them correct their erroneous ways to more positive & beneficial ways instead.
Sounds like a regular Inquisition.

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:34 pm

[/quote]
Sounds like a regular Inquisition.
[/quote]

Yes might be, but I believe the Buddhist approach is more practical and respectful with less prying,
than compared to other possibly god-based religion inquisitors who possibly seeks to dominate or forcefully control others,
and possibly delights in seeking faults with others to boost their own ego at the expense of others, etc.

If there's no trouble or conflict, don't seek it. If it is not broken, don't fix it.
Only if it concerns you or your family directly, then seek a solution.
So yeah the scoping is still important too.

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Yavana
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Re: Facts

Post by Yavana » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:12 am

well wisher wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:34 pm
Sounds like a regular Inquisition.
Yes might be, but I believe the Buddhist approach is more practical and respectful with less prying,
than compared to other possibly god-based religion inquisitors who possibly seeks to dominate or forcefully control others,
and possibly delights in seeking faults with others to boost their own ego at the expense of others, etc.

If there's no trouble or conflict, don't seek it. If it is not broken, don't fix it.
Only if it concerns you or your family directly, then seek a solution.
So yeah the scoping is still important too.
...


Are you coming into me?

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. I assumed it was the subject of the efficacy of Buddhist practice which branched off of the conversation about the nature of facts. Could you clarify?

Is someone fault-finding to boost their ego? Does this concern someone's family? What are the facts here?

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:25 am

[quote=Yavana post_id=483049 time=1550099547 user_id=8018]
[quote="well wisher" post_id=483046 time=1550097260 user_id=11145]
[quote]
Sounds like a regular Inquisition.
[/quote]

Yes might be, but I believe the Buddhist approach is more practical and respectful with less prying,
than compared to other possibly god-based religion inquisitors who possibly seeks to dominate or forcefully control others,
and possibly delights in seeking faults with others to boost their own ego at the expense of others, etc.

If there's no trouble or conflict, don't seek it. If it is not broken, don't fix it.
Only if it concerns you or your family directly, then seek a solution.
So yeah the scoping is still important too.
[/quote]

...
Are you coming into me?

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. I assumed it was the subject of the efficacy of Buddhist practice which branched off of the conversation about the nature of facts. Could you clarify?

Is someone fault-finding to boost their ego? Does this concern someone's family? What are the facts here?
[/quote]

No Yavana, do not worry, it does not really concern you.
its just my own previous experience with one of my step-mon who was a Christian and very obnoxious in forcing her "gospel" onto me with very loud noise and in my face, so I ended up fleeing the apartment on my own for a few days to avoid conflict. She already left my father on her own several years ago.

It's all in the past now, do not worry. That fact only represent for only 1 person, so it should not be extrapolated to say "majority" of god-believing religious people are obnoxious.
Its definitely bad to over-presume much, my mistake.

Let's just stay on topic then. Facts and evidences are definitely important, good to stay focus on it.
Take it easy,

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well wisher
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Re: Facts

Post by well wisher » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 am

I find this poem to be a very good read:
https://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhis ... h_zen.html
"If you wish to see the truth, then hold no opinions for or against anything."

One good way is to hold no prejudice or opinionated view at all,
and let the facts reveal itself, so you can see the facts clearly for yourself,
without trying to chase down the facts to your own liking.
In the general sense, of course.

This matches in line with the OP comic post; that opinion should be separate away from facts.
No attachment nor aversion in your mind, just let the facts naturally arise. :namaste:

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Yavana
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Re: Facts

Post by Yavana » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:02 am

well wisher wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 am
"If you wish to see the truth, then hold no opinions for or against anything."
I'm glad you feel this way. These days, so many people get worked up about President Trump or the "Alt-Right" and even many Buddhists consider themselves "resisters."

Then again, that teaching you've related here is more of a tool than a statement of "fact."
well wisher wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:25 am
That fact only represent for only 1 person, so it should not be extrapolated to say "majority" of god-believing religious people are obnoxious.
Whether or not one finds someone or something obnoxious is a matter of preference, of opinion. Patterns are a "thing," though, and while over-generalizing is a fallacy, generalization is not despite the "politically correct" (and, necessarily politically motivated,) taboo against doing so in certain contexts that was popular in the 90's. Some people do find the majority of Christians to be "obnoxious" because of the very things that make them Christians. Many more will find "religious" or devout Christians to be unpleasant.

None of that is the whole story, or makes those opinions wrong or right. I'm just pointing to an assumption you have and asking you to question it. Maybe there is some truth to the idea that devout Christians are obnoxious. Some truth "to an extent," in a way, and in a relative sense. There are also "objectively" apprehensible characteristics and even patterns that can be analyzed statistically that account for the subjective relationship some have to that group of people. Getting over the idea that you or I may feel that way about some people and taking the time to view them with dispassion (which is a Buddhist "codeword" for trying to be objective,) and with compassion is huge part of Buddhist practice.

Some come to Buddhism for the Shaolin kamehameha secrets. I think many more stay for the maitri/metta/pure-love-vibes.
well wisher wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 am
One good way is to hold no prejudice or opinionated view at all,
and let the facts reveal itself, so you can see the facts clearly for yourself,
without trying to chase down the facts to your own liking.
When I stand, I stand upon the Earth. When night arrives, the stars shimmer and the moon glows and beckons. If I were to go to it, how wondrous would that be? But if the moon were to come to me, what a disaster! And how much more so if the stars arrive? Complete obliteration.

...What you've written isn't untrue, but as Nichiren often cautioned, it's necessary to understand Buddhist teaching in the correct context. There's more I would write, but the forum's intersectarian détente doesn't permit that discussion in this context.
It's all in the past now, do not worry.
I dunno... Js.
its just my own previous experience with one of my step-mon who was a Christian and very obnoxious in forcing her "gospel" onto me with very loud noise and in my face, so I ended up fleeing the apartment on my own for a few days to avoid conflict. She already left my father on her own several years ago.
Sounds like we may have some similarities in our personal experiences. That kind of intense experience can really bend our antennas out of shape when it comes to perceiving things clearly, and Buddhist practice can help with that.

It's probably more of a PM topic, but rest assured that you're not alone by any means.

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