Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm

Daizan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:44 am
2ndchance wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:54 am
3) On the internet, there seems to be more male practitioners of Buddhism, more male practitioners of Daoism than females.
It is interesting that the male to female ratio on this forum is severely skewed to the male, in this supposedly modern egalitarian age.
I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.

User avatar
rory
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by rory » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:22 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm


I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
I'm a woman and enjoy arguing as a child my pro-women parents encouraged me to debate vigorously and be confident. Girls are socialized to be helpful and put the needs of others before them. Boys are socialized to win and be competitive not cooperative.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:44 am

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:22 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm


I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
I'm a woman and enjoy arguing as a child my pro-women parents encouraged me to debate vigorously and be confident. Girls are socialized to be helpful and put the needs of others before them. Boys are socialized to win and be competitive not cooperative.
gassho
Rory
That's exactly it.

muni
Posts: 4872
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by muni » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:14 pm

rory wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:22 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm


I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
I'm a woman and enjoy arguing as a child my pro-women parents encouraged me to debate vigorously and be confident. Girls are socialized to be helpful and put the needs of others before them. Boys are socialized to win and be competitive not cooperative.
gassho
Rory
I would not generalize but you say there something.
The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:55 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm
Daizan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:44 am
2ndchance wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:54 am
3) On the internet, there seems to be more male practitioners of Buddhism, more male practitioners of Daoism than females.
It is interesting that the male to female ratio on this forum is severely skewed to the male, in this supposedly modern egalitarian age.
I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
Ironically contentious.

bxcf24
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:59 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by bxcf24 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:58 pm

At a Rinzai Zen center I go to, it's mostly men. At a soto zen place, it's a mix. At a Chinese temple, it's mostly women.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:36 pm

Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:55 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm
Daizan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:44 am


It is interesting that the male to female ratio on this forum is severely skewed to the male, in this supposedly modern egalitarian age.
I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
Ironically contentious.
I think muni is right that I was over-generalizing just a tad. But my words aren't starting any arguments that can't be swiftly finished without hard feelings. And I think that's important to strive for.

Put a different way, I think the gender ratio on this forum is skewed because it is not a very welcoming place for women. That doesn't need to be the case..

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:24 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:36 pm
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:55 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm


I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
Ironically contentious.
I think muni is right that I was over-generalizing just a tad. But my words aren't starting any arguments that can't be swiftly finished without hard feelings. And I think that's important to strive for.

Put a different way, I think the gender ratio on this forum is skewed because it is not a very welcoming place for women. That doesn't need to be the case..
And others suspect that it's because women are less interested in enlightenment. We don't know which is true. We don't have any evidence to support an argument either way.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:40 pm

Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:24 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:36 pm
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:55 pm


Ironically contentious.
I think muni is right that I was over-generalizing just a tad. But my words aren't starting any arguments that can't be swiftly finished without hard feelings. And I think that's important to strive for.

Put a different way, I think the gender ratio on this forum is skewed because it is not a very welcoming place for women. That doesn't need to be the case..
And others suspect that it's because women are less interested in enlightenment. We don't know which is true. We don't have any evidence to support an argument either way.
Is that what you think? Honestly?

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:36 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:40 pm
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:24 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:36 pm


I think muni is right that I was over-generalizing just a tad. But my words aren't starting any arguments that can't be swiftly finished without hard feelings. And I think that's important to strive for.

Put a different way, I think the gender ratio on this forum is skewed because it is not a very welcoming place for women. That doesn't need to be the case..
And others suspect that it's because women are less interested in enlightenment. We don't know which is true. We don't have any evidence to support an argument either way.
Is that what you think? Honestly?
I’ve been to many different Buddhist temples and groups, and the rule is that men are always more abundant. Even in my immediate relashionships, like that of my longtime girlfriend, I’ve been interested in enlightenment for many year and practice, whereas she has only a moderate interest, if that.

If you find the idea that women are less interested shocking, why? There could be many reasons why women could be less interested. A contributing factor could be the story of the Buddha himself. He abandon his family to seek enlightenment. His wife stayed home. This might signal that it’s a dude thing, or the story could be expressing some kind of archetypical truth.

User avatar
TharpaChodron
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:05 am

I don't think this forum is unwelcoming to women at all. And most of the practitioners at the places I go in the US <California to be exact) are women, although I don't have real proof of that. Like others said, I don't think women are less interested in enlightenment or Buddhism, but often the priorities set before them by dominant cultural norms are raising children and that consumes a lot of time one might otherwise spend meditating, reading books, practicing and chatting on online forums etc.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:25 am

Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:36 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:40 pm
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:24 pm


And others suspect that it's because women are less interested in enlightenment. We don't know which is true. We don't have any evidence to support an argument either way.
Is that what you think? Honestly?
I’ve been to many different Buddhist temples and groups, and the rule is that men are always more abundant. Even in my immediate relashionships, like that of my longtime girlfriend, I’ve been interested in enlightenment for many year and practice, whereas she has only a moderate interest, if that.

If you find the idea that women are less interested shocking, why? There could be many reasons why women could be less interested. A contributing factor could be the story of the Buddha himself. He abandon his family to seek enlightenment. His wife stayed home. This might signal that it’s a dude thing, or the story could be expressing some kind of archetypical truth.
There is a grain of truth here.The pressures placed upon men and women are different from the get-go.

I do not find the idea that women are less interested shocking -- I find it false. There isn't any question about it for me; why do you still wonder about it?

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:27 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:05 am
I don't think this forum is unwelcoming to women at all. And most of the practitioners at the places I go in the US <California to be exact) are women, although I don't have real proof of that. Like others said, I don't think women are less interested in enlightenment or Buddhism, but often the priorities set before them by dominant cultural norms are raising children and that consumes a lot of time one might otherwise spend meditating, reading books, practicing and chatting on online forums etc.
Perhaps I am projecting, but this is the reason I have not participated more in this forum in the past. Maybe I'm an outlier? I hate arguing. I have felt pushed away from this forum before.

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:36 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:25 am
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:36 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:40 pm


Is that what you think? Honestly?
I’ve been to many different Buddhist temples and groups, and the rule is that men are always more abundant. Even in my immediate relashionships, like that of my longtime girlfriend, I’ve been interested in enlightenment for many year and practice, whereas she has only a moderate interest, if that.

If you find the idea that women are less interested shocking, why? There could be many reasons why women could be less interested. A contributing factor could be the story of the Buddha himself. He abandon his family to seek enlightenment. His wife stayed home. This might signal that it’s a dude thing, or the story could be expressing some kind of archetypical truth.
There is a grain of truth here.The pressures placed upon men and women are different from the get-go.

I do not find the idea that women are less interested shocking -- I find it false. There isn't any question about it for me; why do you still wonder about it?
I wonder because I don’t know the truth of the matter and I value truth. Also, I have no desire to believe one way or the other. If there were definitive studies done that showed men are less interested in enlightenment than women it wouldn’t bother me at all. I can’t imagine why it would.

joy&peace
Posts: 1115
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by joy&peace » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:27 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:05 am
I don't think this forum is unwelcoming to women at all. And most of the practitioners at the places I go in the US <California to be exact) are women, although I don't have real proof of that. Like others said, I don't think women are less interested in enlightenment or Buddhism, but often the priorities set before them by dominant cultural norms are raising children and that consumes a lot of time one might otherwise spend meditating, reading books, practicing and chatting on online forums etc.
Perhaps I am projecting, but this is the reason I have not participated more in this forum in the past. Maybe I'm an outlier? I hate arguing. I have felt pushed away from this forum before.
I try to follow the no-arguing policy....

Warmly I think you're great and glad you are here.. :thumbsup:

Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)

Shantidevas Siksa Samuccaya is pretty enlightening on the issue.

May all be happy,
healthy and at peace
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

User avatar
TharpaChodron
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:13 am
Location: California

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:52 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:27 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:05 am
I don't think this forum is unwelcoming to women at all. And most of the practitioners at the places I go in the US <California to be exact) are women, although I don't have real proof of that. Like others said, I don't think women are less interested in enlightenment or Buddhism, but often the priorities set before them by dominant cultural norms are raising children and that consumes a lot of time one might otherwise spend meditating, reading books, practicing and chatting on online forums etc.
Perhaps I am projecting, but this is the reason I have not participated more in this forum in the past. Maybe I'm an outlier? I hate arguing. I have felt pushed away from this forum before.
Even if the main focus of conversations here were primarily arguing or debates, I don't feel that is hostile or unwelcoming to women or people in general. Like if I were to go to a poker game and I don't play poker.
I don't see that as a hostile environment, just one that I can choose to join in and play or fold.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:54 am

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:36 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:25 am
Daizan wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:36 pm


I’ve been to many different Buddhist temples and groups, and the rule is that men are always more abundant. Even in my immediate relashionships, like that of my longtime girlfriend, I’ve been interested in enlightenment for many year and practice, whereas she has only a moderate interest, if that.

If you find the idea that women are less interested shocking, why? There could be many reasons why women could be less interested. A contributing factor could be the story of the Buddha himself. He abandon his family to seek enlightenment. His wife stayed home. This might signal that it’s a dude thing, or the story could be expressing some kind of archetypical truth.
There is a grain of truth here.The pressures placed upon men and women are different from the get-go.

I do not find the idea that women are less interested shocking -- I find it false. There isn't any question about it for me; why do you still wonder about it?
I wonder because I don’t know the truth of the matter and I value truth. Also, I have no desire to believe one way or the other. If there were definitive studies done that showed men are less interested in enlightenment than women it wouldn’t bother me at all. I can’t imagine why it would.
Don't you know?

Do you need studies? Where is your heart?

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:28 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:54 am
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:36 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:25 am


There is a grain of truth here.The pressures placed upon men and women are different from the get-go.

I do not find the idea that women are less interested shocking -- I find it false. There isn't any question about it for me; why do you still wonder about it?
I wonder because I don’t know the truth of the matter and I value truth. Also, I have no desire to believe one way or the other. If there were definitive studies done that showed men are less interested in enlightenment than women it wouldn’t bother me at all. I can’t imagine why it would.
Don't you know?

Do you need studies? Where is your heart?
In our short dialogue you’ve accused me of dishonesty and now heartlessness, and all the while claiming that men are more contentious. Curious.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:33 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:07 pm
Daizan wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:44 am
2ndchance wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:54 am
3) On the internet, there seems to be more male practitioners of Buddhism, more male practitioners of Daoism than females.
It is interesting that the male to female ratio on this forum is severely skewed to the male, in this supposedly modern egalitarian age.
I may have something unique to add here, being transsexual…

Do you know why the ratio is skewed?

If most women are like me, they despise arguing. There is entirely too much of that on this forum. Discussion doesn't require cantankerousness.
Just ignore those posts and threads. Participate or read the ones you choose.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:40 pm

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:28 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:54 am
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:36 am


I wonder because I don’t know the truth of the matter and I value truth. Also, I have no desire to believe one way or the other. If there were definitive studies done that showed men are less interested in enlightenment than women it wouldn’t bother me at all. I can’t imagine why it would.
Don't you know?

Do you need studies? Where is your heart?
In our short dialogue you’ve accused me of dishonesty and now heartlessness, and all the while claiming that men are more contentious. Curious.
I apologize; have I been mean to you?

Sometimes I can be a little bit impatient with people. It's one of my flaws. I get at things fast and become annoyed when others don't follow as quickly.

Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests