working hard
- Könchok Thrinley
- Former staff member
- Posts: 3272
- Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
- Location: He/Him from EU
Re: working hard
I am in this with Grigoris, although I am very much at a beginning and in no way a good example as I am easily distracted and sometimes even daily practice is nothing but an ideal for me. However, as someone said that we have to work and have families and that lessens our time. That is true, but isn't the real time to practice in many ways outside of the cussion? The formal sessions don't have to be that long, however in between sessions one can do the real work. We have our mind always even our malas and dorjes and bells are at home. Be it lojong, bare mindfulness, reciting mantras or engaging in virtuous deeds with body speech and mind.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: working hard
That is just my opinion, it only carries as much weight as you give it.
I believe you are splitting hairs for no particular reason. I am allowed to feel this way and to express it.
What, in the examples given in my post above about "working hard", excludes the idea/notion of being deliberate?There a lot of research to support the efficacy of deliberate practice.
I don't need to google in order to know/understand if my practice is deliberate or not.If you’re not opposed to feeling some degree of discomfort in being publicly proved wrong, google Eric Anderson and deliberate practice. Or just do what feels good.
Sometimes it is deliberate and sometimes it is mechanical, but if you do not put in the effort then it will be neither deliberate nor mechanical. And that is the point of "working hard".
And, because it seems that the point of practice may be lost on you: Practice is 90% about habituation to wholesome views and activities and 10% about deliberation. Initial motivation may require motivation and deliberation, but after that...
PS Lay off the personal judgements of how/what I feel.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
I didn't read your examples, however, immediately subsequent to this question you write:
90% excluded, I guess.Grigoris wrote:Practice is 90% about habituation to wholesome views and activities and 10% about deliberation.
Given the choice between working hard mechanically or deliberately, any serious practitioner should choose the latter. It may be uncomfortable to challenge yourself, but amazing things can happen when you do. Just last night I watched a documentary called The Dawn Wall. It's about a couple of American rock climbers who successfully scaled the 3,000 foot dawn wall of Yosemite. The best rock climbers in the world thought it was impossible. I imagine 'mechanical' climber wouldn't have even considered trying.Sometimes it is deliberate and sometimes it is mechanical, but if you do not put in the effort then it will be neither deliberate nor mechanical. And that is the point of "working hard".
Re: working hard
So you are talking to yourself. Good for you!
It figures that you completely overlooked my explanation, I mean given you are engaging in a monologue...Given the choice between working hard mechanically or deliberately, any serious practitioner should choose the latter.
Sitting your ass down for regular practice is also a challenge. It is also uncomfortable. Don't take my word for it, try it some time. Amazing things happen when you do so.It may be uncomfortable to challenge yourself, but amazing things can happen when you do.
I bet the people that scaled the Dawn Wall had worked their asses off before hand. Not like they just watched a motivational video on youtube and "lo and behold"...
Let's get real here for a second.
Repetition is the key to learning and successfully acquiring skills. Like it or lump it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
I've been talking about deliberate practice, not motivation or motivational videos. Although motivation is also important to any sustained practice.
If that means you'll try to pay attention to what I say and not try to mislead with things like motivational videos or whatever, then by all means.Let's get real here for a second.
Deliberate practice is the key to developing skills beyond where 'mechanical hard work' can get you. If you want to argue against this effectively you'll need to learn more about it, I suppose, but it appears that you have no interest.Repetition is the key to learning and successfully acquiring skills. Like it or lump it.
Re: working hard
You seem to be confounding disagreement with ignorance, or lack of interest.
I already stated that deliberate effort is needed, at least initially, but you overlooked that statement (again) in order to justify trotting out your pony (again).
BORING!
And you continue to insist that repetition is not necessary to consolidate initial interest and improve a skill. Something that every teacher in every single field of learning will attest to.
I will leave you to discussing with, and convincing, yourself.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
You can’t make, and haven’t made, an argument against deliberate practice (as understood by the research of Anders Erickson and others) because you don’t know what it is, apparently. You can’t actually disagree with something you don’t know. I can’t, for example, disagree with or argue against the efficacy of a particular method of baking if I don’t really know much about it. I can say that I disagree with the method but it would be a meaningless dismissal.
Re: working hard
HELLO! I am not arguing against deliberate practice, I am arguing in favor of the utility of repetition.boda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pmYou can’t make, and haven’t made, an argument against deliberate practice (as understood by the research of Anders Erickson and others) because you don’t know what it is, apparently. You can’t actually disagree with something you don’t know. I can’t, for example, disagree with or argue against the efficacy of a particular method of baking if I don’t really know much about it. I can say that I disagree with the method but it would be a meaningless dismissal.
Of course you would have understood this, if you had actually bothered reading what I have been saying.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
If we can “get real” again, you wrote:Grigoris wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:02 pmHELLO! I am not arguing against deliberate practice, I am arguing in favor of the utility of repetition.boda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pmYou can’t make, and haven’t made, an argument against deliberate practice (as understood by the research of Anders Erickson and others) because you don’t know what it is, apparently. You can’t actually disagree with something you don’t know. I can’t, for example, disagree with or argue against the efficacy of a particular method of baking if I don’t really know much about it. I can say that I disagree with the method but it would be a meaningless dismissal.
Of course you would have understood this, if you had actually bothered reading what I have been saying.
And I responded with:Grigoris wrote:Repetition is the key to learning and successfully acquiring skills. Like it or lump it.
So to take a stab at accurately summarizing, you don’t recommend increasing deliberate practice beyond 10% for some as yet undisclosed reason.boda wrote:Deliberate practice is the key to developing skills beyond where 'mechanical hard work' can get you.
I’ve pointed out that, assuming the results of practice are valued, all practice should be deliberate. That’s 100% or as much as possible. Also, with too little deliberate practice and just habitual repetition, even a lot of it, results can degrade.
Re: working hard
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
It's called the Middle Way for a reason. The Buddha taught a million ways to engage and help sentient beings. Many may be incapable of serious discipline at a given time. Of course, we devout Buddhists must hold ourselves to a higher standard. But too often people are discouraged from the Dharma because they don't have the ability to practice seriously and aren't Buddhist Nazis. If you want to make this about adhering to rigid forms of practice and religiousity, might as well cross off most of the sentient beings you wish to engage. As a fellow easily discouraged kid, I think it's a disservice to them.
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17071
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: working hard
Is he talking about Buddhist practice? It doesn't look like it from a cursory search. If not, why would we preference his ideas? This is a subject that Buddhist teachers have written on for 2000 years, and they are writing in the context of what we are actually taking about. They would be the first source to go to, not this guy.boda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pmYou can’t make, and haven’t made, an argument against deliberate practice (as understood by the research of Anders Erickson and others) because you don’t know what it is, apparently. You can’t actually disagree with something you don’t know. I can’t, for example, disagree with or argue against the efficacy of a particular method of baking if I don’t really know much about it. I can say that I disagree with the method but it would be a meaningless dismissal.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: working hard
He doesn't say anything particularly innovative (from a pedagogical perspective) in any of the stuff I skimmed.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:50 pmIs he talking about Buddhist practice? It doesn't look like it from a cursory search. If not, why would we preference his ideas? This is a subject that Buddhist teachers have written on for 2000 years, and they are writing in the context of what we are actually taking about. They would be the first source to go to, not this guy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: working hard
We shouldn’t, just like we shouldn’t prefer him to learning from a master in music, art, mathematics, sports, chess, knitting, or whatever. The principles of deliberate practice can be applied to practically anything. Indeed one of the principles is learning from a master.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:50 pmIs he talking about Buddhist practice? It doesn't look like it from a cursory search. If not, why would we preference his ideas?boda wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pmYou can’t make, and haven’t made, an argument against deliberate practice (as understood by the research of Anders Erickson and others) because you don’t know what it is, apparently. You can’t actually disagree with something you don’t know. I can’t, for example, disagree with or argue against the efficacy of a particular method of baking if I don’t really know much about it. I can say that I disagree with the method but it would be a meaningless dismissal.
I don’t think you’re quite getting the point.This is a subject that Buddhist teachers have written on for 2000 years, and they are writing in the context of what we are actually taking about. They would be the first source to go to, not this guy.
Re: working hard
I basically agree with Grigoris on this question: if you are genuinely committed to Bodhicitta, then the task is relentless. The level of effort required is immense and unceasing. Hard work is the bread and butter of the path. It has to be a constant.
However, I think what some other posters are pointing to is also quite important: that one can easily fall into a mentality of 'working hard for the Dharma' whilst actually being very contrived about it, and this just generates imbalance and hinderances. The 'Buddha drinks milk' example is quite salient here, as Queequeg suggested - in the sense that, there are definitely many points on the path where one has to relax and let go of the intense effort. Being attached to practice is quite a subtle problem.
However, I think what some other posters are pointing to is also quite important: that one can easily fall into a mentality of 'working hard for the Dharma' whilst actually being very contrived about it, and this just generates imbalance and hinderances. The 'Buddha drinks milk' example is quite salient here, as Queequeg suggested - in the sense that, there are definitely many points on the path where one has to relax and let go of the intense effort. Being attached to practice is quite a subtle problem.
Re: working hard
When Bodhicitta is purified, everythings levels out and 'work hard' and 'relaxed approach' are equal. So work hard at purifying Bodhicitta.
Re: working hard
You develop or nurture Bodhicitta, you don't purify it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:12 pm
Re: working hard
An hour or so? Can we make a quantitative assessment in terms of time spent on a cushion?
Re: working hard
Let's say that 20% of the time spent "on a cushion" is actual quality practice time (and I am being generous).DharmaN00b wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:32 pmAn hour or so? Can we make a quantitative assessment in terms of time spent on a cushion?
This means that with one hour of practice, you have dedicated 12 minutes of your day to actually cultivating your mind.
I would say that is pretty piss-poor, wouldn't you?
Do you think that is enough to even make a small dent in the habitual afflictions you have accumulated over countless lifetimes?
That is why in Tibetan traditions they make you do 100,000 or 1,000,000 (or more) repetitions of various practices.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:12 pm
Re: working hard
Thanks very much (Grigoris() that make perfect sense> I will try harder.