working hard

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: working hard

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:59 pm
Let's say that 20% of the time spent "on a cushion" is actual quality practice time (and I am being generous).
Definitely true.

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Grigoris
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Re: working hard

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm

Chandrakirti Madhyamakavatara Section 4:

"All virtues without exception, follow in the train of diligence,
The source of both accumulations, of wisdom and of merit."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

stevie
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Re: working hard

Post by stevie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm
Chandrakirti Madhyamakavatara Section 4:

"All virtues without exception, follow in the train of diligence,
The source of both accumulations, of wisdom and of merit."
Is 'diligence' the same as 'working hard' ?

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Grigoris
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Re: working hard

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:51 am

stevie wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:43 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm
Chandrakirti Madhyamakavatara Section 4:

"All virtues without exception, follow in the train of diligence,
The source of both accumulations, of wisdom and of merit."
Is 'diligence' the same as 'working hard' ?
The same? A key component? A synonym?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

stevie
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Re: working hard

Post by stevie » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:51 am
stevie wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:43 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:24 pm
Chandrakirti Madhyamakavatara Section 4:

"All virtues without exception, follow in the train of diligence,
The source of both accumulations, of wisdom and of merit."
Is 'diligence' the same as 'working hard' ?
The same? A key component? A synonym?
Are 'diligence' and 'working hard' mutually inclusive in terms of meaning, so that what is the one is necessarily the other?

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Grigoris
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Re: working hard

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:59 am

stevie wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:58 am
Are 'diligence' and 'working hard' mutually inclusive in terms of meaning, so that what is the one is necessarily the other?
I already answered that here, so quit wasting my time.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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TharpaChodron
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Re: working hard

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:05 am
I am going to disagree, to an extent, with what people have said so far.

I believe it means that you have to bust your chops.

Put in the time.

Don't skip sessions.

Observe your samaya (vows) like they are your eyes.

Purify when you break samaya.

Push your comfort zone to breaking point and beyond.

You don't know when you will have this precious human existence again, so do not piss it away!

When the teachers say "work hard" they mean work f*ckin' hard!
A lot of people, including some teachers, do seem to taken the gentler approach and say 'just do your best' or the like. Maybe I should pm you, but anyhow, is it a good idea to ask for your teacher to give you an additional commitment or something similar to help you work harder? I feel I need it.

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Grigoris
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Re: working hard

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:13 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 pm
A lot of people, including some teachers, do seem to taken the gentler approach and say 'just do your best' or the like.
It is a trick. :smile: Your best is 100% of your current capacity. There is nothing gentle about that.
Maybe I should pm you, but anyhow, is it a good idea to ask for your teacher to give you an additional commitment or something similar to help you work harder? I feel I need it.
Some people work better with formal commitments to others, other people work just fine making their own commitments. If you feel that making a formal commitment to your teacher will help you work harder, then by all means do so. It is definitely a good idea.

Some people (yes, I am talking about myself too) make commitments to their teacher (samaya) and don't work hard anyway. :(
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

pemachophel
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Re: working hard

Post by pemachophel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:52 pm

IME, one will "work hard" or "do their best" if they have really understood and internalized the Four Topics That Turn the Mind (Lo-dog Nam-zhi). If one is not working hard, it suggests a lack of nge-jung (renunciation/desire to get out of samsara). Milarepa worked so hard because of His totally exemplary nge-jung. If one has real nge-jung (due to really understanding and taking to heart the Four Topics That Turn the Mind), then one doesn't need vows to prod them to action. The inevitability and unpredictability of death and the suffering of samsara will be prods enough.

The Four Topics That Turn the Mind are the foundation for successful practice. Skip over them or rush past them without really having gotten their intended effect and one's practice of the Dharma will eventually falter. One's "butter-bag will become stiff" and one will become "immune" to the Dharma. Also IME, this happens to the vast majority of Dharma practitioners, whether ordained or lay. As long as things aren't all that bad, we don't want to get out of samsara. Either we want a better samsara or simply to "not rock the boat" and continue as we are. But then the **** eventually hits the fan and we realize we're ****ed. However, at that point it's too late. I could give countless examples from among my Dharma brothers and sisters over the last 50 years.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

boda
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Re: working hard

Post by boda » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:36 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:05 am
I am going to disagree, to an extent, with what people have said so far.

I believe it means that you have to bust your chops.

Put in the time.

Don't skip sessions.

Observe your samaya (vows) like they are your eyes.

Purify when you break samaya.

Push your comfort zone to breaking point and beyond.

You don't know when you will have this precious human existence again, so do not piss it away!

When the teachers say "work hard" they mean work f*ckin' hard!
A lot of people, including some teachers, do seem to taken the gentler approach and say 'just do your best' or the like. Maybe I should pm you, but anyhow, is it a good idea to ask for your teacher to give you an additional commitment or something similar to help you work harder? I feel I need it.
It's best to practice just beyond our comfort zone. Breaking will set us back and waste time. A common mistake.

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Miroku
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Re: working hard

Post by Miroku » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:13 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:52 pm
IME, one will "work hard" or "do their best" if they have really understood and internalized the Four Topics That Turn the Mind (Lo-dog Nam-zhi). If one is not working hard, it suggests a lack of nge-jung (renunciation/desire to get out of samsara). Milarepa worked so hard because of His totally exemplary nge-jung. If one has real nge-jung (due to really understanding and taking to heart the Four Topics That Turn the Mind), then one doesn't need vows to prod them to action. The inevitability and unpredictability of death and the suffering of samsara will be prods enough.

The Four Topics That Turn the Mind are the foundation for successful practice. Skip over them or rush past them without really having gotten their intended effect and one's practice of the Dharma will eventually falter. One's "butter-bag will become stiff" and one will become "immune" to the Dharma. Also IME, this happens to the vast majority of Dharma practitioners, whether ordained or lay. As long as things aren't all that bad, we don't want to get out of samsara. Either we want a better samsara or simply to "not rock the boat" and continue as we are. But then the **** eventually hits the fan and we realize we're ****ed. However, at that point it's too late. I could give countless examples from among my Dharma brothers and sisters over the last 50 years.
:good: Shame there is not an emoticon for great posting, because this was a truly excelent one as it goes straight into the heart of the matter!
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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TharpaChodron
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Re: working hard

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:59 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:13 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 pm
A lot of people, including some teachers, do seem to taken the gentler approach and say 'just do your best' or the like.
It is a trick. :smile: Your best is 100% of your current capacity. There is nothing gentle about that.
Maybe I should pm you, but anyhow, is it a good idea to ask for your teacher to give you an additional commitment or something similar to help you work harder? I feel I need it.
Some people work better with formal commitments to others, other people work just fine making their own commitments. If you feel that making a formal commitment to your teacher will help you work harder, then by all means do so. It is definitely a good idea.

Some people (yes, I am talking about myself too) make commitments to their teacher (samaya) and don't work hard anyway. :(

You, not work hard? I somehow highly doubt that. :smile: But I get what you mean.

As for Pema's post above, I agree but then, my challenge (not saying I don't need to MORE truly internalize the four reminders etc because, of course, I am sure I do!) but my struggle is I have a job where I'm stressed daily, doing some rather difficult work. Like today, I was in jail
with a client and then I also go to court every week. Can't explain the details of it all without sounding like I'm whining.

Anyhow, I may be a lousy bodhisattva but I do the type of work where, when I come home, often all I want to do something lighthearted, and focus on the less despairing parts of life.

Will be working on it and I appreciate the pro-tips of you all.

pemachophel
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Re: working hard

Post by pemachophel » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:56 pm

Tharpa Chodron,

Red Chapter 11, Purifying Conduct, of the Avatamsaka Sutra, available in English on-line, to see how you can practice all day, every day no matter where you are or what externally you are doing. You just need to take the aspirations from this chapter and create similar aspirations based on your own daily activities. If you understand this, then you can also come up with Bodhisatvic aspirations for kicking back in the evening and relaxing, even watching movies or the TV. There's nothing you can't easily and effortlessly turn into Bodhisatvic activity if A) you have the will/intention/desire and B) the skillful means.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: working hard

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:23 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:59 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:13 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 pm
A lot of people, including some teachers, do seem to taken the gentler approach and say 'just do your best' or the like.
It is a trick. :smile: Your best is 100% of your current capacity. There is nothing gentle about that.
Maybe I should pm you, but anyhow, is it a good idea to ask for your teacher to give you an additional commitment or something similar to help you work harder? I feel I need it.
Some people work better with formal commitments to others, other people work just fine making their own commitments. If you feel that making a formal commitment to your teacher will help you work harder, then by all means do so. It is definitely a good idea.

Some people (yes, I am talking about myself too) make commitments to their teacher (samaya) and don't work hard anyway. :(

You, not work hard? I somehow highly doubt that. :smile: But I get what you mean.

As for Pema's post above, I agree but then, my challenge (not saying I don't need to MORE truly internalize the four reminders etc because, of course, I am sure I do!) but my struggle is I have a job where I'm stressed daily, doing some rather difficult work. Like today, I was in jail
with a client and then I also go to court every week. Can't explain the details of it all without sounding like I'm whining.

Anyhow, I may be a lousy bodhisattva but I do the type of work where, when I come home, often all I want to do something lighthearted, and focus on the less despairing parts of life.

Will be working on it and I appreciate the pro-tips of you all.
I'm right there with you Tharpa in regards to the heaviness of the work we do. I used to come home from my job and practice my ass off. Pushing my limits to work harder and harder resulted in burnout in all areas of my life. I understand that I will absolutely never be a successful practitioner in this life due to the myriad of obstacles I have to deal with, so for me just doing what little I can with aspirations for a better rebirth is good enough.

Believe it or not, it's possible one can totally internalize the four thoughts and still not be able to practice hard due to x factors.

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Miroku
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Re: working hard

Post by Miroku » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:00 pm

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:23 pm
I'm right there with you Tharpa in regards to the heaviness of the work we do. I used to come home from my job and practice my ass off. Pushing my limits to work harder and harder resulted in burnout in all areas of my life. I understand that I will absolutely never be a successful practitioner in this life due to the myriad of obstacles I have to deal with, so for me just doing what little I can with aspirations for a better rebirth is good enough.

Believe it or not, it's possible one can totally internalize the four thoughts and still not be able to practice hard due to x factors.
Call me an optimist, but I think that even quite a busy westerner can accomplish a lot in this life. The minimum being reborn in a pure land. Sustaining mindful presence during the day is an amazing practice by itself. Then one can also recite mantras of ones yidam whenever possible (if one has a daily yidam practice) or do guru yoga. And lets not forget mind training or essentially developing love and compassion. That all and even can be done off the cussion. And no need to push hard.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

stevie
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Re: working hard

Post by stevie » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:59 am

Who knows working hard on not doing anything?

DharmaN00b
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Re: working hard

Post by DharmaN00b » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:05 pm

stevie wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:59 am
Who knows working hard on not doing anything?
Is this a crisis of purpose? Quite common if I may say so.
If you are drunk here is the submit post button. Submit post

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