Anders wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:40 am
PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:33 am
Well, you're being told by people familiar with both areas that there really isn't much overlap at all. If you're not interested in hearing that, that's your choice. But then your assertion that they have something in common doesn't carry much weight.
Sometimes I feel like people fail to see the forest for all the trees on topics like this and overload their position to extremes.
There is obviously a great deal of overlap between daoism and Buddhism, to such an extent that it is in many ways a quite remarkable example of parallel development. I don't think there is any other non indic tradition with as much similarity to Buddhism as daoism. This similarity is strong enough that great masters such as hanshan deqing even considered Laozi a pratyeka-buddha.
The daoist notions of wu, te, wu-wei and the strong contemplative and experiential focus of the dark learning tradition of daoism all have a fair amount of kinship to Buddhism. And it's not as if there is a shortage of great masters who appreciate Chuang-tzu and laozi and draw freely for poetic inspiration from daoist writers.
And it is easy to see why. The daoist dialectic is often beautiful, Chuang-tzu especially I feel was an extraordinary writer with points pertinent to any seeker. And I can see the appeal in the more organic approach of daoism vs much of Buddhist presentation.
But, it of course also follows for context that just as western Buddhist teacher taking the poetic liberty of stating that "the kingdom of heaven is within" does not make such a teacher Christian, drawing on daoist influences does not necessarily equate to heterodoxy. there is wide berth for inspiration and influence to be had without departing from the fundamentals. And daoism gives as wide a berth as any non Buddhist tradition owing to its many parallels.
Personally, where I feel daoism departs from Buddhism most significantly is in the subtler understandings of emptiness. The heart sutra is not something I see reflected in daoism. And, more importantly for me, its benign indifference to the world and the beings in it is quite a departure from the spirit of Mahayana Buddhism and the bodhisattva vows. But, being generous, one could perhaps also concede that the daoist conception of emptiness is perfectly serviceable for its reclusive goal.
This is of course comparing Buddhism to the most Buddhist-like version of daoism. Once we get into daoist alchemy and path of immortality etc., the family semblance begins to fade.
Anders - a couple of thoughts on this.
This is a difficult topic to discuss because it's very hard to define what we're really talking about when it comes to Daoism. Even if we limit it to the philosophical canon, the DaoZang post-dates several of the sects (Lingbao, Shangqing, etc.) and predates Quanzhen, which probably had the most influence. The texts in the canon show a lot of philosophical variety and inconsistency, and the canon itself never really gave rise to a unified philosophy. Then on top you have the ritual aspect, and the yogic practices, which are very diverse and extensive, and in many schools were a lot more important than study of the philosophy itself, and I agree with you that once you get into this territory it's not clear that it has much at all in common with Buddhism. From what we know of the biographies of premodern Daoists, they were primarily ritualists and yogins, or people post-retirement who sought spiritual consolation from a more forgiving philosophy (and perhaps a few extra years of life). It wasn't a source of great scholars or philosophers. It was a great source of inspiration for artists, though (as with Buddhist influences on Chinese art) the artists themselves were typically not very notable as spiritual practitioners. But some of the core concepts - "uncarved", for instance - are fundamental to Chinese art.
I also agree that you can't read things like emptiness into texts like Zhuangzi. There is certainly an undermining of personal identity, attachment to permanence and connection to the material world and conventional behavior. But it's trying to do something very different from the Buddhist analyses of the two truths, etc. But since Daoism never really developed a clear philosophical position on things like reality, eternalism, self etc. it's very hard to say what it's *not* because we can't really say what it *is* - and that's one of the recurrent themes of Zhuangzi, that if you don't get it, you don't get it. (That superficially might look like mahamadhyamaka - refusal to take a positive position - but again, it isn't, really.)
I would also agree that there's nothing like bodhicitta in Daoism. Indeed there isn't really anything like karma. There isn't any particular reason or motivation to help others achieve enlightenment - and indeed there isn't a lot of direct description of the path to enlightenment in Zhuangzi at all, aside from the analogies of how the enlightened state is incomprehensible to those outside it. There's something a little like anicca and anatman - for instance, the discussion of the tumor sprouting from someone's arm in Zhuangzi - but it's pretty nascent and not really developed, and certainly never gets close to something like the theory of dependent origination. There's no presumption of dukkha. So our starting point for comparing them has to be that a lot of the defining concepts in the Buddhadharma are not found in Daoism.
There are, however, at least two points that appear similar. The first is the advice to retreat from the world, live in the mountains, etc. etc., though the advice of withdrawing from distractions is perhaps common to many religions, not just these two. The second is ideas like wuwei, which sound a lot like certain instructions in the Buddhadharma, particularly ones talking about the enlightened mind (e.g. "may we be spontaneously perfected in the nature of nonaction"). But again I think this is mostly apparent similarity. In a Daoist context often these are passages talking about the relation or attitude of the sage to the world, whereas in the Buddhist context they're talking about the experience of realization, and those aren't quite the same thing.
I have nothing against Daoism at all - indeed I have a lot of interest in how it influenced Chinese art. That said, I suspect that a lot of people today who think they're studying or practicing it don't really know much about it. I also think that it doesn't really have a lot to do with the Buddhadharma, and if someone's interest in this short human life is to study and practice the Dharma, then they should probably do that and leave Zhuangzi alone, because searching for some sort of hidden truth that underlies the two is likely to be a fruitless exercise.