Dzogchen // Middle Way

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makewhisper
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Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by makewhisper » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:35 am

Quick question: Is Dzogchen contemplation (e.g. Norbu Rinpoche's guru yoga) a "middle way" between recognizing versus not recognizing an object?

By recognition, I mean reacting to a sense impression of the object with a conscious (even an inner linguistic) affirmative cognition — like, "this is my focal point." By not recognizing, I mean being distracted or unreactive in a way that dulls consciousness of an object in the direction of no observable sense of inner concern for the question of its being. In that way, the object is non-existent to the momentary stream of appearances.

By middle way, I mean a contemplation that remains steady without becoming enmeshed in affirmation or negation of the object — even if that object is discerned via sense organs in relation to objects, the psychic urge to affirm or turn away from the seemingly existent object is not present.

Is the state in which we are instructed to continue knowing that the point is neither fixation nor distraction?
ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
Oṃ Āḥ Hūṃ
Om Ah Hung

"Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free."

[from Je Tsongkhapa's Three Principal Aspects of the Path]

florin
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by florin » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:47 am

makewhisper wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:35 am
Quick question: Is Dzogchen contemplation (e.g. Norbu Rinpoche's guru yoga) a "middle way" between recognizing versus not recognizing an object?

By recognition, I mean reacting to a sense impression of the object with a conscious (even an inner linguistic) affirmative cognition — like, "this is my focal point." By not recognizing, I mean being distracted or unreactive in a way that dulls consciousness of an object in the direction of no observable sense of inner concern for the question of its being. In that way, the object is non-existent to the momentary stream of appearances.

By middle way, I mean a contemplation that remains steady without becoming enmeshed in affirmation or negation of the object — even if that object is discerned via sense organs in relation to objects, the psychic urge to affirm or turn away from the seemingly existent object is not present.

Is the state in which we are instructed to continue knowing that the point is neither fixation nor distraction?
Contemplation means one connects with the transmission of Dzogchen .
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

Viach
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Viach » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:35 am
Quick question: Is Dzogchen contemplation (e.g. Norbu Rinpoche's guru yoga) a "middle way" between recognizing versus not recognizing an object?

By recognition, I mean reacting to a sense impression of the object with a conscious (even an inner linguistic) affirmative cognition — like, "this is my focal point." By not recognizing, I mean being distracted or unreactive in a way that dulls consciousness of an object in the direction of no observable sense of inner concern for the question of its being. In that way, the object is non-existent to the momentary stream of appearances.

By middle way, I mean a contemplation that remains steady without becoming enmeshed in affirmation or negation of the object — even if that object is discerned via sense organs in relation to objects, the psychic urge to affirm or turn away from the seemingly existent object is not present.

Is the state in which we are instructed to continue knowing that the point is neither fixation nor distraction?
You are trying to understand non-duality with your dualistic mind. This is fundamentally not true. The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice. It can not be understood - it can only be experienced.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:23 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
You are trying to understand non-duality with your dualistic mind. This is fundamentally not true. The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice. It can not be understood - it can only be experienced.
It should and can be understood. Why do you think all those teachers wrote about it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Viach
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Viach » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:23 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
You are trying to understand non-duality with your dualistic mind. This is fundamentally not true. The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice. It can not be understood - it can only be experienced.
It should and can be understood. Why do you think all those teachers wrote about it?
They describe their experience. We must compare our experience with a description of their experience. But if we try to understand the description of their experience without having ours own experience, then this is a waste of time at least.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:54 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:32 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:23 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
You are trying to understand non-duality with your dualistic mind. This is fundamentally not true. The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice. It can not be understood - it can only be experienced.
It should and can be understood. Why do you think all those teachers wrote about it?
They describe their experience. We must compare our experience with a description of their experience. But if we try to understand the description of their experience without having ours own experience, then this is a waste of time at least.
I think you will find that it is not the description of the experience that is of importance, but the meaning of the experience.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Viach
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Viach » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:54 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:32 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:23 pm
It should and can be understood. Why do you think all those teachers wrote about it?
They describe their experience. We must compare our experience with a description of their experience. But if we try to understand the description of their experience without having ours own experience, then this is a waste of time at least.
I think you will find that it is not the description of the experience that is of importance, but the meaning of the experience.
"the meaning of the experience" is included in the description of the experience.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:58 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:07 pm
"the meaning of the experience" is included in the description of the experience.
:roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

florin
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by florin » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:17 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice.
We are all f****d then.
... that would make the state of dzogchen a result that arises from causes, no different from the other eight yanas
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

Viach
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Viach » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:28 pm

florin wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:17 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice.
We are all f****d then.
... that would make the state of dzogchen a result that arises from causes, no different from the other eight yanas
When you increase the sensitivity, for example, of a microscope, then, for example, bacteria that are in water become spontaneously visible, for they have always been in it. We just become sensitive to what is already there.

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Tata1 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:37 pm

florin wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:17 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice.
We are all f****d then.
... that would make the state of dzogchen a result that arises from causes, no different from the other eight yanas
Well i think thats why he used the word "spontaneously"

Anyway in rimpoche system contemplation means to rest in rigpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:01 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:28 pm
florin wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:17 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice.
We are all f****d then.
... that would make the state of dzogchen a result that arises from causes, no different from the other eight yanas
When you increase the sensitivity, for example, of a microscope, then, for example, bacteria that are in water become spontaneously visible, for they have always been in it. We just become sensitive to what is already there.
Which is exactly what happens in the other Yana. Which is probably why most Dzogchen teachers also teach practices from all the other Yana.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by Josef » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:10 pm

Viach wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 pm
makewhisper wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:35 am
Quick question: Is Dzogchen contemplation (e.g. Norbu Rinpoche's guru yoga) a "middle way" between recognizing versus not recognizing an object?

By recognition, I mean reacting to a sense impression of the object with a conscious (even an inner linguistic) affirmative cognition — like, "this is my focal point." By not recognizing, I mean being distracted or unreactive in a way that dulls consciousness of an object in the direction of no observable sense of inner concern for the question of its being. In that way, the object is non-existent to the momentary stream of appearances.

By middle way, I mean a contemplation that remains steady without becoming enmeshed in affirmation or negation of the object — even if that object is discerned via sense organs in relation to objects, the psychic urge to affirm or turn away from the seemingly existent object is not present.

Is the state in which we are instructed to continue knowing that the point is neither fixation nor distraction?
You are trying to understand non-duality with your dualistic mind. This is fundamentally not true. The state of Dzogchen spontaneously results from the Dzogchen practice. It can not be understood - it can only be experienced.
Equating dzogchen with generic non-duality is not the dzogchen view.
It is also not something that results from Dzogchen practice.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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SkyDragon3
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by SkyDragon3 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:10 am

Perhaps this quote from Longchenpa helps:
I apologize for the lack of indent. I cannot find how to implement it here.
The Verses of Longchen Rabjam

Enlightened mind is naturally, primordially pure.
Within reality itself,
there is no sending off or leaving be,
no coming or going,
there is no accomplishment by making effort.

Naturally resting as the expanse of
the sky of reality itself,
the sun and moon of clear light
shines forth.

Not stopping sensory objects, nor fixating mind,
When not wavering from the fundamental state
of natural spontaneous equality,
One arrives at the mind of
enlightened understanding of
great spacious all-goodness.

Without proliferating, without resolving,
One’s natural brilliance is
an utterly pristine clarity,
similar to the reflective brilliance
of an even, unwavering sea.

The fundamental state of
timeless knowing occurring on its own -
reality itself, profoundly clear,
Continues like this, free from
occurrence or engagement, hope and fear.

Although it cannot be put into words,
the authentically self-settled state
is without contrivance or spoil,
without compulsive, picky mind.

Subsided within the expanse,
reality itself has no characteristics.
Since there is no meditation,
nor something to meditate upon,
Enlightened understanding of mind,
occurring on its own, shines forth
And dullness sinking and restless agitation
dissolve on their own.

As thoughts about everything
are the display capability of awareness,
there is no abandonment by abandoning.
Since the fundamental state of reality itself,
has no partiality
and is without differentiation or exclusion,
there is no accomplishment by achievement,
The basic space of reality itself shines forth.
Seen as the pure, authentic joining of
display capability and the great expanse of
timeless knowing occurring on its own,
Samsara is not something to be abandoned.

Timelessly appearances are mind.
Since the continuous flow of
unwavering Samadhi arises -
the fundamental state of reality itself
in its own state,
This is the sublime heart of all-goodness,
the indestructible mountain peak.

Equal in extent to the sky,
this is the most sublime spacious Dharma.
Without differentiation or exclusion,
this is the most sublime meditation of all.
Timelessly vast, a superb occurrence,
this is the king of spontaneous presences.

Timeless and universally present,
clear light is a continuous flow.
Given the spontaneous presence
of this fundamental state,
with no sending off or leaving be,
The nature of Samsara and Nirvana,
the basic space of Dharmas,
is the sublime mind of
enlightened understanding.

The expanse itself, equal to the sky,
is unwavering and indescribable -
A timelessly ensured natural state
present within all wandering beings.

In a bewildered mind, appearances seem
“other” than “self.”
In a bewildered mind, belief in
“meditation” and “striving” is held on to.
Resting in the fundamental state of
the reality itself of bewildered mind,
it is a pure realm of equality.

The expansive nature is unwavering
and primordially pure.
There is nothing to do or strive for,
no resting or non-resting.

Within reality itself,
unchanging and spontaneously present,
As to self-awareness free from
the frantic struggle of concepts and thoughts,
In having looked again and again,
one sees there is nothing to view.
That there is no view is the
view of universally present awareness.

As to awareness, not cultivated in meditation,
free from sending off and leaving be,
In having meditated again and again,
one sees there is no meditation.
That there is no meditation is the
meditation of universally present awareness.

As to the natural mode of abiding, non-dual,
free from rejection and acceptance,
In having performed action again and again,
one sees that there is no action.
That there is no action is the
action of universally present awareness.

As to spontaneous presence, timelessly ensured,
free from hope and fear,
In having achieved again and again,
one sees that there is no accomplishment.
That there is no accomplishment is the
fruition of universally present awareness.

Within the fundamental state of equalness,
there are no thoughts about sensory objects,
no fixations of mind;
hope and fear, and
occurrence and engagement are at peace.

As for abiding in this fundamental state of
the equality of sensory objects and mind,
Within the expanse of reality itself there is
no wavering from the fundamental state.
As the universally present way of abiding,
sensory objects that appear with characteristics
do not actually exist as sensory objects.

Since universally present awareness is
timelessly non-dual,
Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable
in the fundamental state of Dzogchen.
And everything is an infinite evenness,
without acceptance or rejection.

Tangible and intangible are equal
in basic space,
Buddhas and sentient beings are equal
in basic space,
Relative and absolute truth are equal
in basic space,
Faulty and virtuous qualities are equal
in basic space and
Above and below, and all directions in between,
are equal in basic space.
Consequently, as for whatever arises in
the fundamental state which occurs on its own -
At the time of arising, it arises equally,
“good” or “bad” does not exist;
What need is there to apply antidotes,
or accept and reject?
At the time of abiding, it abides equally,
“good” or “bad” does not exist;
So whatever may occur in mind rests
within its own peace.
At the time of dissolving, it dissolves equally,
“good” or “bad” does not exist;
In the ensuing mindfulness, there no longer is
a remnant of “stopping” or “encouraging.”

Everything, within the expansive ground,
enlightened mind itself –
in the undeterminable manner of arising as
display capability and its play, as such -
Once again, it arises equally,
arising within the primordial expanse,
Once again, it arises unequally,
arising within the basic space of equality,
Once again, it abides equally,
resting on their own as the fundamental state
of reality,
Once again, it abides unequally,
abiding within the basic space of equality,
Once again, it dissolves equally,
as the expanse of timeless knowing occurring
on its own,
Once again, it dissolves unequally,
dissolving within the basic space of equality.
~ The Meditations of Longchen Rabjam by Peter F Barth

LoveFromColorado
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Re: Dzogchen // Middle Way

Post by LoveFromColorado » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:51 pm

:good:

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