Visualisations and Dzogchen

[Johnny Dangerous]

Well he also states that we have 3 level of students, according their level of understanding.

This is not applicable for the highest level of understanding students.

Agree if confusion and bad karma is great then one must start down on the ladder

But also here counts that Dzogchen is highest goal.

So in Bon is Dzogchen known in Sutra ,Tantra as preliminary to Dzogchen.

But don't think an advanced practitioner (who does other things) doesn 't support Dzogchen; he / she is already an advanced practitioner of Dzogchen. But besides that, according to the situation, his neighbours or family etc, he does something.

It actually seems to be saying the opposite of what you are saying.

Always this discussion is basically a contest of who is the most "advanced" practitioner. How people can even engage in such a conversation with a straight face is beyond me. If one is self-identifying as the highest level of practitioner, so advanced that they can speak this way without it qualifying as simply disparaging the lower vehicles...there's a lot to unpack there, to say the least.

As a student of ChNN, I also was taught that uncommon ngondro etc. is not necessary, so a lot of this not controversial to me at all. However, that is different than saying one might as well not do it. As it's said, practices are like patches on clothes, we are continually applying them until they fall off and we apply another etc.

The point is just that Tantra is not necessary for to be Dzogchenpa that is the core here.
Then this so called Tantra teacher is sure a Dzogchenpa IF he teaches Tantra in the world of Bön.
If there are Tantrikas in Bön who don´t practise Dzogchen ? Yes possible maybe, i don´t know here examples.

But that isn't the support of his View, it is not his main practice.
There are Dzogchenpas who don´t teach / practise Tantra at all , like myself.
Reason i don´t have time for that , i can bypass that easy and without problems.

"Not necessary" is not the same as "contrary to".

[Johnny Dangerous]

Well he also states that we have 3 level of students, according their level of understanding.

This is not applicable for the highest level of understanding students.

Agree if confusion and bad karma is great then one must start down on the ladder

But also here counts that Dzogchen is highest goal.

So in Bon is Dzogchen known in Sutra ,Tantra as preliminary to Dzogchen.

But don't think an advanced practitioner (who does other things) doesn 't support Dzogchen; he / she is already an advanced practitioner of Dzogchen. But besides that, according to the situation, his neighbours or family etc, he does something.

.

Always this discussion is basically a contest of who is the most "advanced" practitioner.

I don't see this at all since it is impossible to see another persons state unless you are a Master.
We need to respect each other and not presume things that we don't know of.

I agree, but I am not one making assumptions by denigrating other practices. Like I said, if someone else feels they are sufficiently advanced to talk that way, fine, but that's some big britches to wear - better make sure they fit before they fall down around our ankles.

At rate, this has been done to death. I don't see any reason to keep this thread going, it started out with a nice post on Deity yoga and has degenerated into a pissing contest, silly. I'm locking it to clean up, if people want a separate thread on this argument i'll consider moving the other posts elsewhere, PM me if this is the case.

[Grigoris]

Not at all.He is saying the deity's are present within all beings.If one is has this knowledge there is no need for transformation.They arise and
and self liberate effortlessly.

Well I am glad to see that you could understand what they were trying to say!

But even this is a wrong view.

In HYT the deity is not in us (like type of some foreign body), we are the deity.

It is not a matter of transforming, it is a matter of realising this.

We are not changing from "this" to "that", we are recognising that we are "that".