This.seeker242 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pmSure you can, that's what the Buddha's precepts are for.
The path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
Are there such phrases in the canon?
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Yes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).Astus wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 8:48 pmMeditation is not something that just is, it is cultivation, it is training, it is practice. A path is something that leads from one place from another, it is not where one stays around.Viach wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 4:01 pmObviously, if the Path were a set of practices, the Buddha would use the word paṭipajjati, related to paṭipadā. But, he used the word bhāveti, associated with the word bhāvanā, i.e. Path is a description of the eight qualities of a meditative state already achieved. (Path is stable stay (in time and in circumstances) in this meditative state). Q.E.D.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Everything is exactly the opposite.seeker242 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pmThe path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
This is too tedious. 'Ignore user' deployed.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
You are missing the first two parts of the path, the way how one arrives at the third, the path of seeing.Viach wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:08 amYes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).
'the path is fivefold: [1] path of preparation (sambhāramārga), [2] path of application (prayogamārga), [3] path of vision (darśanamārga), [4] path of cultivation (bhāvanāmārga), and [5] path of conclusion (niṣṭhāmārga).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 141)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
On the first two paths ones do not practice 8NP.Astus wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 9:17 amYou are missing the first two parts of the path, the way how one arrives at the third, the path of seeing.Viach wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:08 amYes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).
'the path is fivefold: [1] path of preparation (sambhāramārga), [2] path of application (prayogamārga), [3] path of vision (darśanamārga), [4] path of cultivation (bhāvanāmārga), and [5] path of conclusion (niṣṭhāmārga).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 141)
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
All eight paths and three trainings are used during the first two paths. Just look at what those paths are made up of in Patrul Rinpoche's summary. At the same time, recognise that what Patrul Rinpoche describes follows the Yogacara interpretation of those paths where they fit the 37 bodhipaksadharma into a path system.
Or do you believe that there are different practices of morality, meditation, and wisdom when it's on one path or another? The application of mindfulness is the application of mindfulness, whether it's on the first or the fourth path.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
They are fundamentally different: the first are based on the dualistic mind, the second on the non-dual prajna.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Even for a noble being there are afflictions, and afflictions can exist only based on a dualistic mind, hence the need for practising.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Since noble beings have afflictions, their practice is not based purely on non-dualistic prajna either. So, where is the difference between the application of mindfulness on the different paths?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Practitioners on the first two paths have no the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. They have nothing to get used to. The difference is here.4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
There are stages. First one learns (śruta), then one understands (cintā), and after that one cultivates (bhāvanā) the teaching. All three are different levels of wisdom.
'Firm in his cultivation, endowed with teaching and reflection, he will be capable of giving himself up to meditation.'
(AKB VI.5ab; vol 3, p 911)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Bhikkhu Bodhi disagrees. Pretty sure he is an expert when it comes to the Canon.Viach wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 8:43 amEverything is exactly the opposite.seeker242 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pmThe path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
The word "noble," or ariya, is used by the Buddha to designate a particular type of person, the type of person which it is the aim of his teaching to create.
Finally, the fourth noble truth, the Noble Eightfold Path, assigns us the task of development. The noble ones have reached their status by developing the eightfold path, and while only the noble ones are assured of never deviating from the path, the Buddha's teaching gives us the meticulous instructions that we need to tread the path culminating in the plane of the noble ones. This is the path that gives birth to vision, that gives birth to knowledge, that leads to higher comprehension, enlightenment and Nibbana, the crowning attainment of nobility.
https://www.vipassana.com/resources/bod ... truths.php
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
I think Viach is right.
There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood. The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
Those who believe that the relative is all there is will have to argue that buddhahood has a causal path. However, this belief cannot hold when confronted by Germann's argument here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=30710
There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood. The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
Those who believe that the relative is all there is will have to argue that buddhahood has a causal path. However, this belief cannot hold when confronted by Germann's argument here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=30710
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Only if you do not accept the ekayana doctrine is there three paths.
Do you deny the necessity of accumulating merit and wisdom? If not, then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood. If yes, then you deny the whole possibility of attaining buddhahood.The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
There is no such thing called the unconditioned. It is the cessation of ignorance, the elimination of the two types of obscurations, that brings about enlightenment.Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Not if the path of liberation must be travelled before the path to buddhahood.
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.Astus wrote:Do you deny the necessity of accumulating merit and wisdom? If not, then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood. If yes, then you deny the whole possibility of attaining buddhahood.The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3Astus wrote:There is no such thing called the unconditioned. It is the cessation of ignorance, the elimination of the two types of obscurations, that brings about enlightenment.Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
-
- Posts: 1126
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
On Study Buddhism, Alex Berzin explains the Noble Eightfold Path as the familarisation with and development of the view gained on the Path of Seeing but also as the practices of ordinary beings prior to the Path of Seeing that are similar in nature to those:
Howerver, there is a second section:The eight branches of an arya pathway mind (‘phags-lam yan-lag brgyad, eightfold noble path) refer to eight aspects or features of an accustoming pathway mind (sgom-lam, path of meditation).
An accustoming pathway mind is the fourth of the five pathway minds (lam-lnga, five paths) that shravakas, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas progressively develop in the process of attaining liberation or enlightenment.
see here for the full article: https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... noble-pathThe Eight Branches in Terms of the Practice of Ordinary Beings
The eight branches of an arya pathway mind can also be explained in terms of practices for ordinary beings that are similar in nature to these eight features of an accustoming pathway mind. They are classified in terms of the three higher trainings (lhag-pa’i bslab-pa gsum):
Training in higher discriminating awareness (lhag-pa shes-rab-gyi bslab-pa)
Training in higher ethical discipline (lhag-pa tshul-khrims-kyi bslab-pa)
Training in higher absorbed concentration (lhag-pa ting-nge-‘dzin-gyi bslab-pa).
Training in Higher Discriminating Awareness
Included as part of the training in higher discriminating awareness are right view and right thought
Training in Higher Ethical Discipline
Included as part of the training in higher ethical discipline are right speech, right boundaries of action, and right livelihood
Training in Higher Absorbed Concentration
Included as part of the training in higher absorbed concentration are right effort, right mindfulness, and right absorbed concentration…
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Samdhinirmocana Sutra, Ch 2Astus wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 11:39 am'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Son of good lineage, 'compounded' is a term designated by the Teacher. This term designated by the Teacher is a conventional expression arisen from mental construction. Because a conventional expression arisen from mental construction is a conventional expression of various mental constructions, it is not established. Therefore, it is [said to be] not compounded.
The word in Tibetan that is crucial here is "ma grub", translated above as "not established". When something is established, it is established dualistically.
Definition of "grub pa": Past of 'grub pa q.v. This is used heavily in philosophical terms to give the sense of "that which has come about" and which is then freq. translated as "to be existing".
Something that is unconditioned is not a phenomenon since a phenomenon is something that has come about or has come into phenomenal existence.
As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.