Are there such phrases in the canon?

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
Simon E.
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Simon E. » Sat May 04, 2019 9:45 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:26 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 3:14 pm
Sorry. I have quite genuinely read that through slowly three times and I have no idea what you mean.
Tell me are you Aryan? If not, then you cannot “practice” the Path,
Sure you can, that's what the Buddha's precepts are for.
The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
The path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.
This.
“ When the demon is at your door, in the morning it won’t be there no more
Any major dude will tell you”.

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 6:08 am

Astus wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:48 pm
Viach wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:01 pm
Obviously, if the Path were a set of practices, the Buddha would use the word paṭipajjati, related to paṭipadā. But, he used the word bhāveti, associated with the word bhāvanā, i.e. Path is a description of the eight qualities of a meditative state already achieved. (Path is stable stay (in time and in circumstances) in this meditative state). Q.E.D.
Meditation is not something that just is, it is cultivation, it is training, it is practice. A path is something that leads from one place from another, it is not where one stays around.
Yes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 8:43 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pm
The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
The path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.
Everything is exactly the opposite. :lol:
4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path

Simon E.
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Simon E. » Sun May 05, 2019 9:09 am

This is too tedious. 'Ignore user' deployed.
“ When the demon is at your door, in the morning it won’t be there no more
Any major dude will tell you”.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 05, 2019 9:17 am

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:08 am
Yes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).
You are missing the first two parts of the path, the way how one arrives at the third, the path of seeing.

'the path is fivefold: [1] path of preparation (sambhāramārga), [2] path of application (prayogamārga), [3] path of vision (darśanamārga), [4] path of cultivation (bhāvanāmārga), and [5] path of conclusion (niṣṭhāmārga).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 141)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 am

Astus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:17 am
Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 6:08 am
Yes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).
You are missing the first two parts of the path, the way how one arrives at the third, the path of seeing.

'the path is fivefold: [1] path of preparation (sambhāramārga), [2] path of application (prayogamārga), [3] path of vision (darśanamārga), [4] path of cultivation (bhāvanāmārga), and [5] path of conclusion (niṣṭhāmārga).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 141)
On the first two paths ones do not practice 8NP.
4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 05, 2019 9:55 am

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 am
On the first two paths ones do not practice 8NP.
All eight paths and three trainings are used during the first two paths. Just look at what those paths are made up of in Patrul Rinpoche's summary. At the same time, recognise that what Patrul Rinpoche describes follows the Yogacara interpretation of those paths where they fit the 37 bodhipaksadharma into a path system.
Or do you believe that there are different practices of morality, meditation, and wisdom when it's on one path or another? The application of mindfulness is the application of mindfulness, whether it's on the first or the fourth path.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 10:23 am

Astus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:55 am

Or do you believe that there are different practices of morality, meditation, and wisdom when it's on one path or another? The application of mindfulness is the application of mindfulness, whether it's on the first or the fourth path.
They are fundamentally different: the first are based on the dualistic mind, the second on the non-dual prajna.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 05, 2019 10:46 am

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:23 am
They are fundamentally different: the first are based on the dualistic mind, the second on the non-dual prajna.
Even for a noble being there are afflictions, and afflictions can exist only based on a dualistic mind, hence the need for practising.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 11:04 am

Astus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:46 am
Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:23 am
They are fundamentally different: the first are based on the dualistic mind, the second on the non-dual prajna.
Even for a noble being there are afflictions, and afflictions can exist only based on a dualistic mind, hence the need for practising.
Afflictions are based on a dualistic mind, but not practice(of the fourth path). These are different things.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 05, 2019 11:09 am

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:04 am
Afflictions are based on a dualistic mind, but not practice(of the fourth path). These are different things.
Since noble beings have afflictions, their practice is not based purely on non-dualistic prajna either. So, where is the difference between the application of mindfulness on the different paths?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Viach
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Viach » Sun May 05, 2019 12:29 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:09 am
Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:04 am
Afflictions are based on a dualistic mind, but not practice(of the fourth path). These are different things.
Since noble beings have afflictions, their practice is not based purely on non-dualistic prajna either. So, where is the difference between the application of mindfulness on the different paths?
4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
Practitioners on the first two paths have no the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. They have nothing to get used to. The difference is here.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 05, 2019 6:50 pm

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:29 pm
Practitioners on the first two paths have no the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. They have nothing to get used to. The difference is here.
There are stages. First one learns (śruta), then one understands (cintā), and after that one cultivates (bhāvanā) the teaching. All three are different levels of wisdom.

'Firm in his cultivation, endowed with teaching and reflection, he will be capable of giving himself up to meditation.'
(AKB VI.5ab; vol 3, p 911)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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seeker242
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by seeker242 » Sun May 05, 2019 11:03 pm

Viach wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:43 am
seeker242 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:34 pm
The path is the truth (the fourth), and the truth cannot be practiced: it can only be comprehended/achieved. Four Noble Truths - are the Aryan truths, i.e. a given for the Aryans.
The path is the Buddhas teaching on how to become an ariya. The path is not taught just for people who are already enlightened, that wouldn't make any sense. Enlightened people don't need to be told to keep right speech, right action, etc, as that is how they naturally behave. The path is taught in order to turn ordinary people into ariya. Ariya are not the ones in need of teaching to begin with.
Everything is exactly the opposite. :lol:
4. The Path of Meditation
The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... s-and-path
Bhikkhu Bodhi disagrees. Pretty sure he is an expert when it comes to the Canon. :smile:
The word "noble," or ariya, is used by the Buddha to designate a particular type of person, the type of person which it is the aim of his teaching to create.

Finally, the fourth noble truth, the Noble Eightfold Path, assigns us the task of development. The noble ones have reached their status by developing the eightfold path, and while only the noble ones are assured of never deviating from the path, the Buddha's teaching gives us the meticulous instructions that we need to tread the path culminating in the plane of the noble ones. This is the path that gives birth to vision, that gives birth to knowledge, that leads to higher comprehension, enlightenment and Nibbana, the crowning attainment of nobility.
https://www.vipassana.com/resources/bod ... truths.php
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Sun May 05, 2019 11:34 pm

I think Viach is right.

There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood. The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.

Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.

Those who believe that the relative is all there is will have to argue that buddhahood has a causal path. However, this belief cannot hold when confronted by Germann's argument here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=30710

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Mon May 06, 2019 8:37 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:34 pm
There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood.
Only if you do not accept the ekayana doctrine is there three paths.
The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
Do you deny the necessity of accumulating merit and wisdom? If not, then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood. If yes, then you deny the whole possibility of attaining buddhahood.
Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
There is no such thing called the unconditioned. It is the cessation of ignorance, the elimination of the two types of obscurations, that brings about enlightenment.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 am

Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:37 am
Sherab wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:34 pm
There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood.
Only if you do not accept the ekayana doctrine is there three paths.
Not if the path of liberation must be travelled before the path to buddhahood.
Astus wrote:
The former path is a path in the relative. The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute. The former path is causal; the latter path is not.
Do you deny the necessity of accumulating merit and wisdom? If not, then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood. If yes, then you deny the whole possibility of attaining buddhahood.
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.
Astus wrote:
Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
There is no such thing called the unconditioned. It is the cessation of ignorance, the elimination of the two types of obscurations, that brings about enlightenment.
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Mon May 06, 2019 11:39 am

Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 am
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.
Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:37 am
then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Bristollad
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Bristollad » Mon May 06, 2019 2:28 pm

On Study Buddhism, Alex Berzin explains the Noble Eightfold Path as the familarisation with and development of the view gained on the Path of Seeing but also as the practices of ordinary beings prior to the Path of Seeing that are similar in nature to those:
The eight branches of an arya pathway mind (‘phags-lam yan-lag brgyad, eightfold noble path) refer to eight aspects or features of an accustoming pathway mind (sgom-lam, path of meditation).
An accustoming pathway mind is the fourth of the five pathway minds (lam-lnga, five paths) that shravakas, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas progressively develop in the process of attaining liberation or enlightenment.
Howerver, there is a second section:
The Eight Branches in Terms of the Practice of Ordinary Beings
The eight branches of an arya pathway mind can also be explained in terms of practices for ordinary beings that are similar in nature to these eight features of an accustoming pathway mind. They are classified in terms of the three higher trainings (lhag-pa’i bslab-pa gsum):

Training in higher discriminating awareness (lhag-pa shes-rab-gyi bslab-pa)
Training in higher ethical discipline (lhag-pa tshul-khrims-kyi bslab-pa)
Training in higher absorbed concentration (lhag-pa ting-nge-‘dzin-gyi bslab-pa).

Training in Higher Discriminating Awareness
Included as part of the training in higher discriminating awareness are right view and right thought

Training in Higher Ethical Discipline
Included as part of the training in higher ethical discipline are right speech, right boundaries of action, and right livelihood

Training in Higher Absorbed Concentration
Included as part of the training in higher absorbed concentration are right effort, right mindfulness, and right absorbed concentration…
see here for the full article: https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... noble-path

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Mon May 06, 2019 11:11 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:39 am
Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 am
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.
Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:37 am
then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.
Samdhinirmocana Sutra, Ch 2
Son of good lineage, 'compounded' is a term designated by the Teacher. This term designated by the Teacher is a conventional expression arisen from mental construction. Because a conventional expression arisen from mental construction is a conventional expression of various mental constructions, it is not established. Therefore, it is [said to be] not compounded.

The word in Tibetan that is crucial here is "ma grub", translated above as "not established". When something is established, it is established dualistically.

Definition of "grub pa": Past of 'grub pa q.v. This is used heavily in philosophical terms to give the sense of "that which has come about" and which is then freq. translated as "to be existing".

Something that is unconditioned is not a phenomenon since a phenomenon is something that has come about or has come into phenomenal existence.

As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.

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