spying spirits

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javier.espinoza.t
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spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 pm

Hello,

Does anyone know what are the "spying nyuley spirits"? how can one identify them?

Thank's in the advance :)

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Re: spying spirits

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 07, 2019 8:42 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Hello,

Does anyone know what are the "spying nyuley spirits"? how can one identify them?

Thank's in the advance :)
I got the creeps when a butterly passed by me today.This was the first time and I am not lepidopterophobic.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by Mantrik » Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Hello,

Does anyone know what are the "spying nyuley spirits"? how can one identify them?

Thank's in the advance :)
I've come across the wording 'Nyul Ney' in relation to a certain Gyalpo spirit. That seems close?

(Irrelevant, but anyway: In other cosmology altogether, a 'watcher' spirit is sent by a person (shaman, etc) to spy on an enemy. It is an emanation containing some of the life essence of the person, and so harming or destroying it also harms the originator. It appears as a glowing amorphous cloud-like ball.)
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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 07, 2019 9:44 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Hello,

Does anyone know what are the "spying nyuley spirits"? how can one identify them?

Thank's in the advance :)
I've come across the wording 'Nyul Ney' in relation to a certain Gyalpo spirit. That seems close?

(Irrelevant, but anyway: In other cosmology altogether, a 'watcher' spirit is sent by a person (shaman, etc) to spy on an enemy. It is an emanation containing some of the life essence of the person, and so harming or destroying it also harms the originator. It appears as a glowing amorphous cloud-like ball.)
oh i found information in Jamgön Kongtrül's commentary on The Path of Accomplishing, of Padmasambhava.
...to subdue all the nyuley spirits who spy and seek to interrupt the practice...
seems that this are linked to problems that -can- happen when one is doing dharma thing like retreats, particular actions, etc., and are controled by means of Guardians and related actions.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by Mantrik » Tue May 07, 2019 10:10 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:44 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Hello,

Does anyone know what are the "spying nyuley spirits"? how can one identify them?

Thank's in the advance :)
I've come across the wording 'Nyul Ney' in relation to a certain Gyalpo spirit. That seems close?

(Irrelevant, but anyway: In other cosmology altogether, a 'watcher' spirit is sent by a person (shaman, etc) to spy on an enemy. It is an emanation containing some of the life essence of the person, and so harming or destroying it also harms the originator. It appears as a glowing amorphous cloud-like ball.)
oh i found information in Jamgön Kongtrül's commentary on The Path of Accomplishing, of Padmasambhava.
...to subdue all the nyuley spirits who spy and seek to interrupt the practice...
seems that this are linked to problems that -can- happen when one is doing dharma thing like retreats, particular actions, etc., and are controled by means of Guardians and related actions.
It may simply be advice to prepare the ritual space, make offerings etc. paying attention to the Local Guardians of Place and Time, appeasing Nagas etc.
After all, any of the classes of spirits, from Mamos to Gyalpos, can cause problems.
Maybe there is a specific subjugation procedure being referred to - it would be interesting to know, for sure. :)
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: spying spirits

Post by pemachophel » Tue May 07, 2019 11:52 pm

Nyul means to spy.

The second syllable depends on whether it's ney or le. One possibility, gNas means place. Las means action. If it's nyul las, then that could be rendered "spying."

I'd go for the latter. In that case, my guess is that this is not a particular class of spirits but simply the behavior of some indeterminate class of spirits.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed May 08, 2019 6:08 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:10 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:44 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm


I've come across the wording 'Nyul Ney' in relation to a certain Gyalpo spirit. That seems close?

(Irrelevant, but anyway: In other cosmology altogether, a 'watcher' spirit is sent by a person (shaman, etc) to spy on an enemy. It is an emanation containing some of the life essence of the person, and so harming or destroying it also harms the originator. It appears as a glowing amorphous cloud-like ball.)
oh i found information in Jamgön Kongtrül's commentary on The Path of Accomplishing, of Padmasambhava.
...to subdue all the nyuley spirits who spy and seek to interrupt the practice...
seems that this are linked to problems that -can- happen when one is doing dharma thing like retreats, particular actions, etc., and are controled by means of Guardians and related actions.
It may simply be advice to prepare the ritual space, make offerings etc. paying attention to the Local Guardians of Place and Time, appeasing Nagas etc.
After all, any of the classes of spirits, from Mamos to Gyalpos, can cause problems.
Maybe there is a specific subjugation procedure being referred to - it would be interesting to know, for sure. :)
yes, there is, at least in the context of Drubchen.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by pemachophel » Wed May 08, 2019 7:58 pm

Every time one does a Vajrayana puja, one gives a kar-tor (white torma) to spirits who are willing to allow the puja to proceed peacefully and then a geg-tor (obstructors torma) to forcefully remove any remaining negative spirits. Then one erects a vajra tent to completely insulate the practitioners from any disturbing forces. This is SOP in Vajrayana and not just at drub-chens. These two offerings of torma usually come after the kyab-dro (refuge & development of Bodhictta) and the yen-lag dun-pa (seven limbed offering).
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Re: spying spirits

Post by Sādhaka » Wed May 08, 2019 8:22 pm

Pemachophel,

Is it considered sufficient to have the two types as sculptures setting on the shrine, and then visualize offering them?

Or should you necessarily make both kinds out of barley flour etc. every single day?
The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed May 08, 2019 8:31 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:58 pm
Every time one does a Vajrayana puja, one gives a kar-tor (white torma) to spirits who are willing to allow the puja to proceed peacefully and then a geg-tor (obstructors torma) to forcefully remove any remaining negative spirits. Then one erects a vajra tent to completely insulate the practitioners from any disturbing forces. This is SOP in Vajrayana and not just at drub-chens. These two offerings of torma usually come after the kyab-dro (refuge & development of Bodhictta) and the yen-lag dun-pa (seven limbed offering).
Thank you Lama Pema. Another question, in daily life, should one tolerate eventual presence of obstructors or should one drive'em away without much delay?

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Re: spying spirits

Post by pemachophel » Wed May 08, 2019 11:26 pm

Sadhaka,

I've never seen permanent kar-tor and geg-tor. Other permanent tormas, yes, but not these. That doesn't mean no one does this. I just haven't ever seen it.

If you want/need to offer them every day but don't have the time to make them, I have seen and I sometimes use small store-bought cakes (cupcakes, Ding Dongs, Twinkies, etc.) as stand-ins for these. In the case of the geg-tor, I stick a small candle in the cake.

I also sometimes make two weeks' worth of tormas and store them in the freezer for later use.

I have seen small plates of rice used as well.
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Re: spying spirits

Post by pemachophel » Wed May 08, 2019 11:31 pm

Javier,

I'm not sure I have an answer to your question as stated.

If the sadhana you're doing says to offer kar-tor and geg-tor each morning, then that's what you should do or at least some simulacrum. However, if you are practicing in a place where you have practiced the current sadhana for some time, you might choose to skip these two torma offerings based on the belief that the place has already been well paid for and well pacified. That'd depend on your level of confidence. Bottom line, do what your Teacher tells you to do.
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Re: spying spirits

Post by Sādhaka » Thu May 09, 2019 3:11 am

Thank you Pemachophel.

Ah, then based on your reply to Javier, it can be deduced that a place where the SoV has been sung a quality/number of times, could replace said offerings.
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Re: spying spirits

Post by Tenma » Thu May 09, 2019 9:28 pm

How about the Dalai Lama's case:
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2019/a-m ... permission

How would one benefit the obstructors in this case?

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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri May 10, 2019 6:59 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:28 pm
How about the Dalai Lama's case:
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2019/a-m ... permission

How would one benefit the obstructors in this case?
i'm sorry, i didn't get it. is it the right link? :)

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Re: spying spirits

Post by haha » Fri May 10, 2019 7:13 am

From above link:
When he was ready and began to read the ritual for bestowing the permission, he explained that there is a common option to offer a ritual cake to drive away interfering forces. However, he has decided that seeking to drive such beings away is inconsistent with his avowed wish to help all sentient beings.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri May 10, 2019 7:24 am

pemachophel wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:31 pm
Javier,

I'm not sure I have an answer to your question as stated.

If the sadhana you're doing says to offer kar-tor and geg-tor each morning, then that's what you should do or at least some simulacrum. However, if you are practicing in a place where you have practiced the current sadhana for some time, you might choose to skip these two torma offerings based on the belief that the place has already been well paid for and well pacified. That'd depend on your level of confidence. Bottom line, do what your Teacher tells you to do.
i have no indication about, i'm on my own criteria.

My teacher often said one should use owr brain.

I ask because somethimes i have perception of beings asking things (like help and alike, pacifying in general) in a not polite way, but they are not really against practice or dharma, most don't even know dharma exists, is just that in their condition they can't be nice.

But somethimes there are true obstructors, that particulary are against doing things like good actions (shitro, korwa, etc.) So, question is if one should manage those who can reason or drive them away altogether.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri May 10, 2019 7:24 am

haha wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 7:13 am
From above link:
When he was ready and began to read the ritual for bestowing the permission, he explained that there is a common option to offer a ritual cake to drive away interfering forces. However, he has decided that seeking to drive such beings away is inconsistent with his avowed wish to help all sentient beings.
oh i missed that. Thank's.

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Re: spying spirits

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri May 10, 2019 4:29 pm

Tenma wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:28 pm
How about the Dalai Lama's case:
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2019/a-m ... permission

How would one benefit the obstructors in this case?
These are gek, obstacle making spirits. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has expressed the opinion that the most compassionate thing we can do for them is let them hear the dharma.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: spying spirits

Post by Tenma » Fri May 10, 2019 9:26 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:28 pm
How about the Dalai Lama's case:
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2019/a-m ... permission

How would one benefit the obstructors in this case?
These are gek, obstacle making spirits. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has expressed the opinion that the most compassionate thing we can do for them is let them hear the dharma.
What about the concept of chanting loudly that may cause spirits to be disrupted?

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