Are there such phrases in the canon?

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Mon May 06, 2019 11:16 pm

Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:11 pm
Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:39 am
Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 am
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.
Astus wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:37 am
then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned. Udana 8.3
'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.
Samdhinirmocana Sutra, Ch 2
Son of good lineage, 'compounded' is a term designated by the Teacher. This term designated by the Teacher is a conventional expression arisen from mental construction. Because a conventional expression arisen from mental construction is a conventional expression of various mental constructions, it is not established. Therefore, it is [said to be] not compounded.

The word in Tibetan that is crucial here is "ma grub", translated above as "not established". When something is established, it is established dualistically.

Definition of "grub pa": Past of 'grub pa q.v. This is used heavily in philosophical terms to give the sense of "that which has come about" and which is then freq. translated as "to be existing".

Something that is unconditioned is not a phenomenon since a phenomenon is something that has come about or has come into phenomenal existence.

Udana 8.3 is not contradicted by the mentioned verse in Samdhinirmocana Sutra.

As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.

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Astus
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Tue May 07, 2019 9:21 am

Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:11 pm
As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
That is an erroneous logic that fails to take account of what conditioned and what unconditioned mean, of what the conventional and what the ultimate truth are. From the same chapter 2 of the Samdhinirmocana Sutra (BDK ed):

'if the descriptive marks of ultimate meaning were entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, then those who have already gained insight into truth would not have expunged images of conditioned states of being. And if they had not expunged images of conditioned states of being, then they would not have attained liberation from bondage to those images. Not being liberated from those images, they would not be freed from bondage to their gross weaknesses. Not being freed from bondage to gross weaknesses, those who have gained insight into truth would have been unable to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill or full, perfect awakening. ...
Suviśuddhimati, neither is it the case that those who have gained insight into truth have not been able to expunge all the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been able to expunge them. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to gross weaknesses, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is precisely because they have been capable of liberation from these two obstacles that they have been able to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill and to realize full, perfect wisdom. Therefore, the opinion that the descriptive marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the descriptive marks of conditioned states of being is not reasonable. If some say that the marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, from the above argument you should understand that this opinion is neither intelligent nor truly reasonable.'

(p 18-19)

'On the other hand, if the descriptive mark of the truth of ultimate meaning were entirely different from conditioned states of being, then it would not be true that all conditioned states of being are manifestations only of the absence of self, of the absence of essence. The marks of ultimate truth would then simultaneously be held to be characterized in two different manners, one of defilement and one of purity. But, Suviśuddhimati, these marks of conditioned things are indeed different. Those who practice meditation do search for ultimate meaning in the conditioned states of being they have seen, heard, understood, and known. Also, all conditioned states of being are indeed manifestations only of the absence of self, the absence of essence, and they are rightly termed marks of ultimate truth. It is not true that it is simultaneously characterized in two manners, one of defilement and one of purity.'
(p 20)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Tue May 07, 2019 10:36 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:21 am
Sherab wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:11 pm
As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.
That is an erroneous logic that fails to take account of what conditioned and what unconditioned mean, of what the conventional and what the ultimate truth are. From the same chapter 2 of the Samdhinirmocana Sutra (BDK ed):

'if the descriptive marks of ultimate meaning were entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, then those who have already gained insight into truth would not have expunged images of conditioned states of being. And if they had not expunged images of conditioned states of being, then they would not have attained liberation from bondage to those images. Not being liberated from those images, they would not be freed from bondage to their gross weaknesses. Not being freed from bondage to gross weaknesses, those who have gained insight into truth would have been unable to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill or full, perfect awakening. ...
Suviśuddhimati, neither is it the case that those who have gained insight into truth have not been able to expunge all the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been able to expunge them. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to gross weaknesses, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is precisely because they have been capable of liberation from these two obstacles that they have been able to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill and to realize full, perfect wisdom. Therefore, the opinion that the descriptive marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the descriptive marks of conditioned states of being is not reasonable. If some say that the marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, from the above argument you should understand that this opinion is neither intelligent nor truly reasonable.'

(p 18-19)

'On the other hand, if the descriptive mark of the truth of ultimate meaning were entirely different from conditioned states of being, then it would not be true that all conditioned states of being are manifestations only of the absence of self, of the absence of essence. The marks of ultimate truth would then simultaneously be held to be characterized in two different manners, one of defilement and one of purity. But, Suviśuddhimati, these marks of conditioned things are indeed different. Those who practice meditation do search for ultimate meaning in the conditioned states of being they have seen, heard, understood, and known. Also, all conditioned states of being are indeed manifestations only of the absence of self, the absence of essence, and they are rightly termed marks of ultimate truth. It is not true that it is simultaneously characterized in two manners, one of defilement and one of purity.'
(p 20)
Yes, but why should this imply that the relative is all there is? Claiming that the relative is all there is suffers from the above criticism.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Wed May 08, 2019 9:45 am

Sherab wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:36 pm
Yes, but why should this imply that the relative is all there is?
No such implication was made. The point is that there is no unconditioned apart from the conditioned, furthermore, that there is a path to liberation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:45 am
Sherab wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:36 pm
Yes, but why should this imply that the relative is all there is?
No such implication was made. The point is that there is no unconditioned apart from the conditioned, furthermore, that there is a path to liberation.
It is actually the other way round, there is no conditioned without the unconditioned. And there is a path to temporary liberation and a path to permanent liberation.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Thu May 09, 2019 10:57 am

Sherab wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 pm
there is a path to temporary liberation and a path to permanent liberation.
So, there is agreement on the matter of there being a path one needs to follow in order to become liberated.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by SunWuKong » Thu May 09, 2019 4:15 pm

Not even the unconditioned has an independent, permanent, eternal existence. It's a cornerstone of the Dharma.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by SunWuKong » Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 pm

In samadhi, the "conditioned" and "unconditioned" don't look any different at their source. That's why it's called samadhi.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Sherab
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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Thu May 09, 2019 10:45 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:57 am
Sherab wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:49 pm
there is a path to temporary liberation and a path to permanent liberation.
So, there is agreement on the matter of there being a path one needs to follow in order to become liberated.
The path for temporary liberation is causal. The path to permanent liberation is non-causal. That is how I look at it.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Thu May 09, 2019 10:47 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:19 pm
In samadhi, the "conditioned" and "unconditioned" don't look any different at their source. That's why it's called samadhi.
"Conditioned" and "unconditioned" are merely labels, conventions for communication in the relative via language. The state of buddhahood is ineffable.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Fri May 10, 2019 10:59 am

Sherab wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:45 pm
The path to permanent liberation is non-causal.
Among the three unconditioned dharmas (AKB I.5-6, vol 1, p 59-61) there are two types of cessation: with and without analysis, of which the former means nirvana, and the latter just ordinary cessation of things. So liberation has not only a cause in general, but it must be specific, hence the requirement for a path that leads one to freedom from afflictions. As Wangchuk Dorje explained:

'Cessation that is analytic is cessation attained by the power of analyzing suffering and the other noble truths with full knowing. Its essence is a cessation that is a removal of defiled dharmas.'
(Jewels from the Treasury, p 104)

Also, a path means a way that takes one from point A to point B. It is per definition causal, hence a "non-causal path" cannot exist.

'you absolutely must not maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening. If you maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening, then the eye of the Way will be blocked by the waiting state of your mind.'
(Letters of Dahui, p 311)

'People in many ages from the ancient past to the present have thought that the words “when the time has come. . .” are about waiting for a time in the future when the buddha-nature might be manifest before us. [They think that,] continuing their practice with this attitude, they will naturally meet the time when the buddha-nature is manifest before them. They say that, because the time has not come, even if they visit a teacher and ask for Dharma, and even if they pursue the truth and make effort, [the buddhanature] is not manifest before them. Taking such a view they vainly return to the world of crimson dust and vacantly stare at the Milky Way. People like this may be a variety of naturalistic non-Buddhists.'
(Dogen: Bussho, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 7)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:59 am
Sherab wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 10:45 pm
The path to permanent liberation is non-causal.
Among the three unconditioned dharmas (AKB I.5-6, vol 1, p 59-61) there are two types of cessation: with and without analysis, of which the former means nirvana, and the latter just ordinary cessation of things. So liberation has not only a cause in general, but it must be specific, hence the requirement for a path that leads one to freedom from afflictions. As Wangchuk Dorje explained:

'Cessation that is analytic is cessation attained by the power of analyzing suffering and the other noble truths with full knowing. Its essence is a cessation that is a removal of defiled dharmas.'
(Jewels from the Treasury, p 104)

Also, a path means a way that takes one from point A to point B. It is per definition causal, hence a "non-causal path" cannot exist.

'you absolutely must not maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening. If you maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening, then the eye of the Way will be blocked by the waiting state of your mind.'
(Letters of Dahui, p 311)

'People in many ages from the ancient past to the present have thought that the words “when the time has come. . .” are about waiting for a time in the future when the buddha-nature might be manifest before us. [They think that,] continuing their practice with this attitude, they will naturally meet the time when the buddha-nature is manifest before them. They say that, because the time has not come, even if they visit a teacher and ask for Dharma, and even if they pursue the truth and make effort, [the buddhanature] is not manifest before them. Taking such a view they vainly return to the world of crimson dust and vacantly stare at the Milky Way. People like this may be a variety of naturalistic non-Buddhists.'
(Dogen: Bussho, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 7)
The cessation achieved by arhats is from following a causal path. That is why the Buddha has to awaken them subsequently from their temporary cessation and lead them to buddhahood.

The non-causal path cannot involve any effort. To maintain the mind in a state of waiting for awakening is an effort.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sat May 11, 2019 8:50 am

Sherab wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 pm
The cessation achieved by arhats is from following a causal path. That is why the Buddha has to awaken them subsequently from their temporary cessation and lead them to buddhahood.
Analytical cessation applies to both sravakas and bodhisattvas.

'Pratisamkhyanirodha is of two kinds: a. obtained by the destruction of bonds, that is to say, obtained when one has cut off the klesas that cause rebirth; b. obtained by the destruction of barriers, that is to say, realized when all remaining barriers have been cleared away.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 765, tr Wei Tat)
The non-causal path cannot involve any effort. To maintain the mind in a state of waiting for awakening is an effort.
Where liberation is without cause one can do nothing to become liberated, and that's why such an incorrect view can be called waiting for awakening.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Sat May 11, 2019 10:27 pm

Astus wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:50 am
Sherab wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 pm
The cessation achieved by arhats is from following a causal path. That is why the Buddha has to awaken them subsequently from their temporary cessation and lead them to buddhahood.
Analytical cessation applies to both sravakas and bodhisattvas.
If analytical cessation is all that is needed, then the Buddha need not awaken arhats so as to lead them to buddhahood.
Astus wrote: 'Pratisamkhyanirodha is of two kinds: a. obtained by the destruction of bonds, that is to say, obtained when one has cut off the klesas that cause rebirth; b. obtained by the destruction of barriers, that is to say, realized when all remaining barriers have been cleared away.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 765, tr Wei Tat)
The non-causal path cannot involve any effort. To maintain the mind in a state of waiting for awakening is an effort.
Where liberation is without cause one can do nothing to become liberated, and that's why such an incorrect view can be called waiting for awakening.
One of the gates of liberation is wishlessness or without intent. Intent or wish is an action, an effort. To wait has the aspect of expecting something. That is an action, an effort.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Sun May 12, 2019 8:30 am

Sherab wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:27 pm
If analytical cessation is all that is needed, then the Buddha need not awaken arhats so as to lead them to buddhahood.
It is a type of cessation, and as such can apply to both the complete elimination of klesavarana and jneyavarana, as the provided quote from the Cheng Weishi Lun states. It does not mean that the nirvana of arhats and buddhas are identical. What it means is that the elimination of hindrances requires wisdom, it doesn't happen on its own (i.e. without cause and effort).
One of the gates of liberation is wishlessness or without intent. Intent or wish is an action, an effort. To wait has the aspect of expecting something. That is an action, an effort.
Wishlessness is a type of samadhi, it doesn't mean a practitioner should be without aspiration and effort. To put it another way, there is relative and there is absolute bodhicitta, and one needs both of them. Similarly, one needs both method and wisdom, where method includes the viryaparamita.

'All of you Bhikshus! You should always single-mindedly and diligently seek the way out of all the moving and unmoving dharmas of the world, for they are all decaying, unfixed appearances.'
(Sutra on the Buddha's Bequeathed Teaching)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Sun May 12, 2019 11:36 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:30 am
Sherab wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:27 pm
If analytical cessation is all that is needed, then the Buddha need not awaken arhats so as to lead them to buddhahood.
It is a type of cessation, and as such can apply to both the complete elimination of klesavarana and jneyavarana, as the provided quote from the Cheng Weishi Lun states. It does not mean that the nirvana of arhats and buddhas are identical. What it means is that the elimination of hindrances requires wisdom, it doesn't happen on its own (i.e. without cause and effort).
You have not explained why arhats need to be awakened by the Buddha.
Astus wrote:
One of the gates of liberation is wishlessness or without intent. Intent or wish is an action, an effort. To wait has the aspect of expecting something. That is an action, an effort.
Wishlessness is a type of samadhi, it doesn't mean a practitioner should be without aspiration and effort. To put it another way, there is relative and there is absolute bodhicitta, and one needs both of them. Similarly, one needs both method and wisdom, where method includes the viryaparamita.
There are the other two gates of liberation: signlessness and emptiness. They do not mean that the practitioner should be without discrimination of signs and without discrimination of emptiness? (warning: double negatives)
Astus wrote: 'All of you Bhikshus! You should always single-mindedly and diligently seek the way out of all the moving and unmoving dharmas of the world, for they are all decaying, unfixed appearances.'
(Sutra on the Buddha's Bequeathed Teaching)
I don't understand this part of the quotation: "… unmoving dharmas of the world … decaying, unfixed appearances". What do you think are the unmoving dharmas of the world that are decaying, unfixed appearances?

Returning to Udana 8.3
There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

If the relative is all there is, then there cannot be anything that is not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned. Since the Buddha uttered Udana 8.3, it should be safe to assume that the relative is NOT all there is. There is the NOT-relative.

I think the Buddha expected some of his followers to think that the relative is all there is because of the heavy emphasis on dependent origination in his teachings. Hence his utterance of Udana 8.3.

More significantly though, the Buddha implied that BECAUSE there is the NOT-relative, only then, is an escape from the relative is possible.

Note that if the relative is all there is, Udana 8.3 is reduced to because there is the relative, there is liberation from the relative. That don't make sense.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Mon May 13, 2019 9:19 am

Sherab wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:36 pm
You have not explained why arhats need to be awakened by the Buddha.
I have not even touched that topic, so what explanation do you want?
There are the other two gates of liberation: signlessness and emptiness. They do not mean that the practitioner should be without discrimination of signs and without discrimination of emptiness? (warning: double negatives)
The problem is not with the phenomena that occur, it is with the identification with and grasping at them. Aiming for blankness is the wrong approach.
I don't understand this part of the quotation: "… unmoving dharmas of the world … decaying, unfixed appearances". What do you think are the unmoving dharmas of the world that are decaying, unfixed appearances?
Moving dharmas refer to the kamadhatu, unmoving dharmas refer to the rupadhatu and arupadhatu (as they're the dhyana realms), so together they mean the three realms, the whole of samsara. (source)
If the relative is all there is
See my previous response. Also note that the doctrine of the two truths is fairly universally accepted among Buddhists.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Sherab » Tue May 14, 2019 12:22 am

Astus wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:19 am
Sherab wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:36 pm
You have not explained why arhats need to be awakened by the Buddha.
I have not even touched that topic, so what explanation do you want?
Because I used it to argue for a non-causal path. I was suggesting previously that Arhats following a causal path attained only temporary liberation and need to be awakened by the Buddha subsequently to follow a non-causal path to attain permanent liberation.
Astus wrote:
There are the other two gates of liberation: signlessness and emptiness. They do not mean that the practitioner should be without discrimination of signs and without discrimination of emptiness? (warning: double negatives)
The problem is not with the phenomena that occur, it is with the identification with and grasping at them. Aiming for blankness is the wrong approach.
Aiming for blankness involves effort and therefore is still based on the assumption of cause and effect. It is not a non-causal path.
Astus wrote:
I don't understand this part of the quotation: "… unmoving dharmas of the world … decaying, unfixed appearances". What do you think are the unmoving dharmas of the world that are decaying, unfixed appearances?
Moving dharmas refer to the kamadhatu, unmoving dharmas refer to the rupadhatu and arupadhatu (as they're the dhyana realms), so together they mean the three realms, the whole of samsara. (source)
Then the quote that you provided previously does not imply that there is no non-causal path.
Astus wrote:
If the relative is all there is
See my previous response. Also note that the doctrine of the two truths is fairly universally accepted among Buddhists.
Okay, you chose to ignore my comments again on Udana 8.3 which was intended to show that there is a non-causal path.

By the way, the two truth is consistent with the existence of a causal and non-causal path. The doctrine of the two truths does not imply that the relative is all there is. In fact, it is more indicative of the relative is NOT all there is.

I am going to leave this discussion as you are not providing anything new and relevant that would cause me to reconsider my position. Before that, you may wish to think about this: In the twelve links of D.O., there is the link of consciousness. If the relative is all there is, then the causal consciousness is all that any being will have. If the relative is all there is, the cessation of consciousness results in annihilation. I have pointed out this to you before in a different thread, but you seemed to ignore it. I am assuming that you will choose to ignore it again.

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Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?

Post by Astus » Tue May 14, 2019 10:57 am

Sherab wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:22 am
subsequently to follow a non-causal path to attain permanent liberation.
What non-causal path would that be? Sravakas change to the bodhisattva path that consists of accumulating wisdom and merit through the cultivation of the paramitas, i.e. a causal path.
It is not a non-causal path.
What is a non-causal path?
Then the quote that you provided previously does not imply that there is no non-causal path.
Since both sravakas and bodhisattvas attain liberation through analytical cessation, and analytical cessation involves intention, effort, etc., it is not without cause. Apart from those two what could you call a non-causal path?
was intended to show that there is a non-causal path.
That sutta says nothing about a path. It simply states that there is nirvana, the unborn and undying, the cessation of suffering. Therefore, it is relevant for the 3rd noble truth, the goal, but not the path (i.e. the 4th noble truth).
In fact, it is more indicative of the relative is NOT all there is.
Agreed, and that was not a contended point. What does that have to do with what sort of non-causal path?
If the relative is all there is
That is not anyone's position, consequently problems of a non-existent position are not actual problems.
If the relative is all there is, the cessation of consciousness results in annihilation.
Since there has never been a self, what/who is annihilated? Also, consciousness is impermanent, rises and ceases every moment, so you might as well say that there is annihilation all the time, however, because there is also birth every moment, it is not really annihilation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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