The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 5:19 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:14 pm
"The livestock sector plays an important role in climate change."
~ Tackling Climate Change through Livestock
A global assessment of emissions and mitigation opportunities

Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, Rome 2013
http://www.fao.org/3/i3437e/i3437e00.htm

The FAO also has a secret agenda. Sure they do, that sounds reasonable. :rolling:
This is about changing practices, methods and distribution, not about people becoming vegetarians.
With each post you passionately place, you prove my point further.

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seeker242
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:30 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:19 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:14 pm
"The livestock sector plays an important role in climate change."
~ Tackling Climate Change through Livestock
A global assessment of emissions and mitigation opportunities

Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, Rome 2013
http://www.fao.org/3/i3437e/i3437e00.htm

The FAO also has a secret agenda. Sure they do, that sounds reasonable. :rolling:
This is about changing practices, methods and distribution, not about people becoming vegetarians.
With each post you passionately place, you prove my point further.
The problem with your point, is that it's irrelevant. The fact remains, "The livestock sector plays an important role in climate change."
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 5:43 pm

You miss my point. It's not about its relevance. It's about people USING climate change to promote their agendas, introducing unnecessary problems. People won't become vegetarian. People will still demand meat. There will be no reduction in meat consumption until there's shortage. So this just adds an unnecessary distraction by attaching to climate change another divisive idea.

That article you quoted is about changing procedures so that livestock becomes less damaging for the environment so that people CAN eat meat. It has nothing to do with people becoming vegetarians. It doesn't support the said reduction in meat eating (that would be a good thing) that started this dialogue.

So now you are manipulating information to suit your ends. That's how things start to get messy when other agendas get in the middle of solving the real problem.
Anyway, that ends my contribution on this sub topic. If you didn't get it by now, you probably won't.

Best wishes.

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seeker242
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 5:51 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:43 pm

So now you are manipulating information to suit your ends. That's how things start to get messy when other agendas get in the middle of solving the real problem.
Yea, and Bill Nye, who is not even a vegetarian himself, is doing the same secret agenda thing. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 5:56 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:51 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:43 pm

So now you are manipulating information to suit your ends. That's how things start to get messy when other agendas get in the middle of solving the real problem.
Yea, and Bill Nye, who is not even a vegetarian himself, is doing the same secret agenda thing. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
For the last time... as I wrote above, if you were a meat eater saying this I wouldn't have said you had an agenda. But as your most active topic is "the great vegetarian debate", where you advocate vegetarianism, and by your recent display in this very thread, I'm pretty confident you made my point about the problem of mixing agendas with climate change crystal clear.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 6:06 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:56 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:51 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:43 pm

So now you are manipulating information to suit your ends. That's how things start to get messy when other agendas get in the middle of solving the real problem.
Yea, and Bill Nye, who is not even a vegetarian himself, is doing the same secret agenda thing. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
For the last time... as I wrote above, if you were a meat eater saying this I wouldn't have said you had an agenda. But as your most active topic is "the great vegetarian debate", where you advocate vegetarianism, and by your recent display in this very thread, I'm pretty confident you made my point about the problem of mixing agendas with climate change crystal clear.
Which is the very definition of "ad hominem", and therefore illogical and unreasonable, and therefore irrelevant. The topic is about climate change, it's causes and what can be done about it. Why the planet is on fire, and what can be done about it, is most certainly related to the fact that it's on fire. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 7:04 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 6:06 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:56 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:51 pm


Yea, and Bill Nye, who is not even a vegetarian himself, is doing the same secret agenda thing. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
For the last time... as I wrote above, if you were a meat eater saying this I wouldn't have said you had an agenda. But as your most active topic is "the great vegetarian debate", where you advocate vegetarianism, and by your recent display in this very thread, I'm pretty confident you made my point about the problem of mixing agendas with climate change crystal clear.
Which is the very definition of "ad hominem", and therefore illogical and unreasonable, and therefore irrelevant. The topic is about climate change, it's causes and what can be done about it. Why the planet is on fire, and what can be done about it, is most certainly related to the fact that it's on fire. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.
No, it's not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me saying you were stupid or attacking you. Please understand that I'm not. Most likely you are a vegetarian out of compassion. That is wonderful. Why I think some people benefit more from other diets is another matter. So power to you and I'm very glad you try to lessen the suffering of other beings.

If everyone became vegetarian would it help the planet? As far as I can see, yes, definitively. Is this likely to happen in the near future? Not by a long shot. It's unfortunate? It is.

The climate change debate is hard as it is. For changes to happen, the role of public opinion is very important. This is what, in the end, puts people in the necessary positions to do something about it. There's a lot of people who don't want such changes to happen. The needed research that has to be done so that we get out of this mess costs millions and it will be political power to determine if such funds are allocated for such ends.

You don't swing public opinion in your favor by, on top of every accommodations they'll have to do, saying they will have to drastically change their diet, especially in countries where people see no problem whatsoever in eating meat. You'll simply create resistance. Opposing forces win and you can kiss good bye to the so much need funding for what really matters.

It's a matter of choosing battles to win the war. The problem with people with agendas is that they tend to lose perspective and choose poorly. It's a risk we can't afford to take. So don't use climate changes theory to promote anything other than itself. Don't use it to promote vegetarianism, even knowing it would help, because that is a battle you'll lose and overall you'll be doing more harm than good in this particular case.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue May 14, 2019 7:12 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:04 pm

No, it's not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me saying you were stupid or attacking you. Please understand that I'm not
Actually, I think it's exactly an ad hominem, since you're discussing his motives instead of directly responding to the points he is making. Ad hominem is not about calling names...

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:04 pm
If everyone became vegetarian would it help the planet? As far as I can see, yes, definitively. Is this likely to happen in the near future? Not by a long shot. It's unfortunate? It is.
If everyone stopped using fossil fuel would it help the planet? As far as I can see, yes, definitively. Is this likely to happen in the near future? Not by a long shot. It's unfortunate? It is.

Does that mean is should not be talked about? Of course not. Every possible solution should be on the table. To try and push things off the table, as if they are somehow mutually exclusive to others, which they aren't, or just because you personally don't like them, is not doing the planet any favors. The most effective avenue of action, is all avenues of action.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 7:20 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:12 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:04 pm

No, it's not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me saying you were stupid or attacking you. Please understand that I'm not
Actually, I think it's exactly an ad hominem, since you're discussing his motives instead of directly responding to the points he is making. Ad hominem is not about calling names...
I disagree. I am aware of what is ad hominem.

I'm discussing the problem of attaching agendas to climate change discussion, not if reducing meat eating is beneficial or not for the environment, which I said it is.

At most you may believe he has no agenda. It's your right. I don't. I explained why and what are the problems associated with that. The amount of distraction introduced in this topic is a clear example.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Tue May 14, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 7:30 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:13 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:04 pm
If everyone became vegetarian would it help the planet? As far as I can see, yes, definitively. Is this likely to happen in the near future? Not by a long shot. It's unfortunate? It is.
If everyone stopped using fossil fuel would it help the planet? As far as I can see, yes, definitively. Is this likely to happen in the near future? Not by a long shot. It's unfortunate? It is.

Does that mean is should not be talked about? Of course not. Every possible solution should be on the table. To try and push things off the table, as if they are somehow mutually exclusive to others, which they aren't, or just because you personally don't like them, is not doing the planet any favors. The most effective avenue of action, is all avenues of action.
As long as you provide energy to people, they couldn't care less where does it come from, fossil fuel or otherwise.

There's also the significant difference between one solving the problem and the other not.

The thing is that by associating the measures climate changes will imply with becoming vegetarian you'll lose more than you gain. You lose public opinion, we're done.
Trump already won the elections. That means a lot on how desperately the public opinion needs to be regained.

So start talking to people about becoming vegetarian to fight the climatic changes and you'll see where that leads. Most won't be as patient as I'm being because they have little knowledge about it (and don't want more of it). To them what you are saying amounts to the same as a joke like: OK, cow farts are endangering the planet! Wooo!

In fact, they are a problem, but a reduction in meat eating would do much more than simply dealing with cow farts. It would be more beneficial than that. But none of that matters if you lose public opinion. By obsessing in wining a small battle you lose the war. Then it won't matter.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 7:56 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:30 pm
The thing is that by associating the measures climate changes will imply with becoming vegetarian you'll lose more than you gain.
Which actual reality has shown to not be happening. Bill Nye himself also disagrees, which is why he talks about it. Vegetarianism is more popular than it ever has been, and one of the reasons is because a plant based diet is the most climate friendly diet. You not liking that fact does not change the fact that it's true. Withholding the truth from people is not an effective method of advancing change...
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 8:30 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:56 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:30 pm
The thing is that by associating the measures climate changes will imply with becoming vegetarian you'll lose more than you gain.
Which actual reality has shown to not be happening. Bill Nye himself also disagrees, which is why he talks about it. Vegetarianism is more popular than it ever has been, and one of the reasons is because a plant based diet is the most climate friendly diet. You not liking that fact does not change the fact that it's true. Withholding the truth from people is not an effective method of advancing change...
I like that fact. It would be worse if it was reversed.
We eat way too much meat as it is, imagine giving them yet another excuse. I can imagine, "it's not that I like meat. It's just that I'm fighting climate changes!"

Vegetarianism is still very much a minoritary choice.
Most people dislike it. So many people don't even believe climate changes, let alone being vegetarian is a way to help fighting them. It doesn't help.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:30 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:56 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:30 pm
The thing is that by associating the measures climate changes will imply with becoming vegetarian you'll lose more than you gain.
Which actual reality has shown to not be happening. Bill Nye himself also disagrees, which is why he talks about it. Vegetarianism is more popular than it ever has been, and one of the reasons is because a plant based diet is the most climate friendly diet. You not liking that fact does not change the fact that it's true. Withholding the truth from people is not an effective method of advancing change...
I like that fact. It would be worse if it was reversed.
We eat way too much meat as it is, imagine giving them yet another excuse. I can imagine, "it's not that I like meat. It's just that I'm fighting climate changes!"

Vegetarianism is still very much a minoritary choice.
Most people dislike it. So many people don't even believe climate changes, let alone being vegetarian is a way to help fighting them. It doesn't help.
Not using fossil fuel is also very much a minority choice, that does not mean it shouldn’t be spoken about.
It most certainly should be discussed, as should all possible avenues of correcting the issue. The idea that all avenues shouldn’t be discussed, is what is not helpful.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 9:46 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:41 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:30 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:56 pm


Which actual reality has shown to not be happening. Bill Nye himself also disagrees, which is why he talks about it. Vegetarianism is more popular than it ever has been, and one of the reasons is because a plant based diet is the most climate friendly diet. You not liking that fact does not change the fact that it's true. Withholding the truth from people is not an effective method of advancing change...
I like that fact. It would be worse if it was reversed.
We eat way too much meat as it is, imagine giving them yet another excuse. I can imagine, "it's not that I like meat. It's just that I'm fighting climate changes!"

Vegetarianism is still very much a minoritary choice.
Most people dislike it. So many people don't even believe climate changes, let alone being vegetarian is a way to help fighting them. It doesn't help.
Not using fossil fuel is also very much a minority choice, that does not mean it shouldn’t be spoken about.
It most certainly should be discussed, as should all possible avenues of correcting the issue. The idea that all avenues shouldn’t be discussed, is what is not helpful.
Again comparing the uncomparable in terms of impact.
People don't care where their energy comes from. Provide an alternative to fossil fuel and fine by them.

Now, don't take their meat away if all you have to offer is veggies.

First they have to believe climate change is happening and it's serious. It's hard to introduce an idea if you present it along with others by nature divisive.

But my whole point was about other agendas being pushed piggybacking climate change, especially if there's the chance they become hindrances. That point was pretty much made with your help. Thank you.

Can we now move along and stop reducing this topic to this subject? It's boring already.

We all know reducing meat consumption would help. We all know you think pushing this along with the necessary changes to counteract climate changes is a good idea.

We all know I think attaching other agendas to climate change is problematic. We are not going to agree. So let's leave at that.

Best wishes.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2019 10:20 pm

I agree with Seeker's point - that one of the many consequences of climate change is that society is going to need to adapt alternative food sources, and reduce reliance on meat. There might, after all, be actual large-scale famines and/or food shortages before too long, what with the mushrooming global population, and the decline in arable land due to environmental changes. I noticed a few years back, an small upsurge of articles about whether people could adapt to eating food derived from insects. The story died down again, but I had the suspicion that someone was putting up a trial balloon about it.

Accordingly, it's no coincidence that meat replacement food technology companies Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat have both had very successful IPO's in the recent past.

David Lee, CFO for Impossible Foods, said “We have cracked the molecular code for meat and built an industry-leading intellectual property portfolio and brand. Our global financial partners are supporting a technology powerhouse that will transform the global food system.”

Let's hope they can do it, because it is something that needs to happen, along with electric vehicles, universal solar power, and many other factors.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by boda » Tue May 14, 2019 10:30 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:46 pm
We all know I think attaching other agendas to climate change is problematic. We are not going to agree. So let's leave at that.
I don't know if 'agenda' is the right word to use since reducing anything that contributes to climate change is on the same todo list. Also, you haven't as yet made a convincing argument that considering multiple approaches simultaneously is problematic.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue May 14, 2019 11:15 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:20 pm
I agree with Seeker's point - that one of the many consequences of climate change is that society is going to need to adapt alternative food sources, and reduce reliance on meat. There might, after all, be actual large-scale famines and/or food shortages before too long, what with the mushrooming global population, and the decline in arable land due to environmental changes. I noticed a few years back, an small upsurge of articles about whether people could adapt to eating food derived from insects. The story died down again, but I had the suspicion that someone was putting up a trial balloon about it.

Accordingly, it's no coincidence that meat replacement food technology companies Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat have both had very successful IPO's in the recent past.

David Lee, CFO for Impossible Foods, said “We have cracked the molecular code for meat and built an industry-leading intellectual property portfolio and brand. Our global financial partners are supporting a technology powerhouse that will transform the global food system.”

Let's hope they can do it, because it is something that needs to happen, along with electric vehicles, universal solar power, and many other factors.
:good:

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue May 14, 2019 11:19 pm

Is it so difficult to understand that many people still need to believe climate changes are real, we are causing them and that attaching to this other divisive ideas is problematic?

Groups pushing their own agendas is one of the reasons few got done so far, be it politics, taxes or... vegetarianism.

If the public opinion is lost, there's no hope. Pushing this sort of divisive ideas, as meritorious as they might be, along with climate change discussion is a good way to kill the process. Reducing meat consumption won't make that much of a difference. Why risking losing support on such a minor point? Once enough people realize where we are, then yes, it's wise. Right now it seems to me that it is plain stupid and does more harm than good to "the cause". :lol:

Anyway, I made my point as clear as possible. Nobody has to agree.

Best wishes to all.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Tue May 14, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Planet's on F****** Fire says Bill Nye

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 pm

Boiling down a huge problem like climate change to individual consumer decisions is a problem. The reason that it's a problem is that if you focus exclusively on individual lifestyle decisions, you are taking people's eye off the systemic issue that produced the problem in the first place.

An argument can also be made that arguing for "lifestyle politics" exclusively benefits (as one example) large agribusiness because it makes it seem like it is simply consumer desire for meat (as one example) that is driving demand, when the real picture is far more murky, and the individual consumer likely has a lot less agency in the situation than it seems. It wasn't individual consumers and their choices alone which created industrial agriculture..which I imagine we can -all- agree is pretty monstrous in many ways.

That's not to say individual decisions don't matter, they do, particularly in terms of smaller scale/regional happenings, and in terms of one's own relationship with relative reality. However, they do not exist in a vacuum, and we shouldn't pretend the world can or will be altered solely by first world lifestyle changes.
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