Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

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Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Sun May 19, 2019 5:16 pm

I was at a teaching from Chime Rinpoche when he said with a smile “Anyone of you could jump straight into the awakened state immediately, but you won’t, because you don’t believe me. You think you have to know stuff first”. :smile:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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PeterC
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by PeterC » Mon May 20, 2019 3:54 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:04 pm
It’s not easy. But it is simple.
The Prestige?

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Mon May 20, 2019 9:46 am

Sorry, I don’t get the reference.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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PeterC
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by PeterC » Mon May 20, 2019 10:18 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:46 am
Sorry, I don’t get the reference.
Greatly underrated film by Christopher Nolan (Inception, Memento) starring Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Hugh Jackman, Scarlett Johansson, Andy Serkis and - believe it or not - David Bowie as Nicola Tesla. Film was about stage magicians engaged in a protracted and damaging feud. A critical phrase, said early on but the significance of which develops through the film, is of the best tricks being simple, but not easy. It's well worth watching if you haven't seen it.

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Mon May 20, 2019 10:35 am

OK thanks. I might give it a go, despite being allergic to Bowie. Which
I know is near blasphemy for a Brit of my vintage. :smile:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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PeterC
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by PeterC » Mon May 20, 2019 11:43 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:35 am
OK thanks. I might give it a go, despite being allergic to Bowie. Which
I know is near blasphemy for a Brit of my vintage. :smile:
He doesn't sing in this one - and he's only in a couple of scenes. But yes, that is absolutely blasphemy...

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Mon May 20, 2019 11:50 am

8-)
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Jangchup Donden » Mon May 20, 2019 2:14 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:04 pm
There ya go. It’s not easy. But it is simple.
A handful of lifetimes following a genuine guru putting into practice "difficult" teachings is still way easier than innumerable kalpas in samsara.

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Mon May 20, 2019 2:38 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:14 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:04 pm
There ya go. It’s not easy. But it is simple.
A handful of lifetimes following a genuine guru putting into practice "difficult" teachings is still way easier than innumerable kalpas in samsara.
True that.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu May 23, 2019 8:29 pm

£$&^@ wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:04 pm
Find a teacher. Cross check their pedigree to ensure that they are lineage holders.
Follow their instructions.
Leave your beliefs and opinions outside the door.


There ya go. It’s not easy. But it is simple.
Here is the OP, Note ‘It’s NOT easy.’ Note ’check that their pedigree to ensure that they are lineage holders’ .Only lineage holders can function as Vajrayana gurus. This is actually pretty basic uncontroversial stuff.
It's still not that straightforward, IMO. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche's credentials... Vajrayana is a very powerful medicine; if used incorrectly, it's a very powerful poison...

Tenma
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Tenma » Thu May 23, 2019 9:52 pm

I recall one teaching of the 7 line prayer where Lama Dawa Chodak did mention that while Vajrayana is short, it is also dangerous if one goes the wrong way...

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Jangchup Donden » Thu May 23, 2019 10:07 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:29 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:44 pm
£$&^@ wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 3:04 pm
Find a teacher. Cross check their pedigree to ensure that they are lineage holders.
Follow their instructions.
Leave your beliefs and opinions outside the door.


There ya go. It’s not easy. But it is simple.
Here is the OP, Note ‘It’s NOT easy.’ Note ’check that their pedigree to ensure that they are lineage holders’ .Only lineage holders can function as Vajrayana gurus. This is actually pretty basic uncontroversial stuff.
It's still not that straightforward, IMO. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche's credentials... Vajrayana is a very powerful medicine; if used incorrectly, it's a very powerful poison...
This is why it's very important to examine a potential guru for a very long time (as is taught). Unfortunately, false gurus aren't going to tell you that, and if you're new to Vajrayana you might not know about it either. So very difficult. Maybe one thing to look for initially is a guru who actually invites you to examine their activity and motivations. If they hide the teachings about how to appropriately measure a guru, then IMO that's a huge warning flag.

Sennin
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Sennin » Fri May 24, 2019 12:59 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:29 pm
It's still not that straightforward, IMO. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche's credentials... Vajrayana is a very powerful medicine; if used incorrectly, it's a very powerful poison...
:good:

smcj
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by smcj » Fri May 24, 2019 1:45 am

A friend of mine suggests examining a guru by talking to his former students.

I say that as a Lama Norlha student. He wouldn’t do so well by that measure, but I still think it’s a good rule of thumb to go by.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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PeterC
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by PeterC » Fri May 24, 2019 1:54 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:29 pm
It's still not that straightforward, IMO. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche's credentials... Vajrayana is a very powerful medicine; if used incorrectly, it's a very powerful poison...
If anyone had enquired into the amount of time Lakhar spent with his supposed gurus and his age during that training; what practice and study he had completed himself; and his conduct, they would have come to a conclusion pretty quickly.

What obscured the reality with him is the number of high lamas who came to give teachings at his centers. Someone taking that as a mark of approval could easily be excused for mistaking Lakhar's ability as a teacher

smcj
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by smcj » Fri May 24, 2019 2:26 am

What obscured the reality with him is the number of high lamas who came to give teachings at his centers. Someone taking that as a mark of approval could easily be excused for mistaking Lakhar's ability as a teacher
Bingo.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Lingpupa
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Lingpupa » Fri May 24, 2019 8:35 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:54 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:29 pm
It's still not that straightforward, IMO. Look at Sogyal Rinpoche's credentials... Vajrayana is a very powerful medicine; if used incorrectly, it's a very powerful poison...
If anyone had enquired into the amount of time Lakhar spent with his supposed gurus and his age during that training; what practice and study he had completed himself; and his conduct, they would have come to a conclusion pretty quickly.

What obscured the reality with him is the number of high lamas who came to give teachings at his centers. Someone taking that as a mark of approval could easily be excused for mistaking Lakhar's ability as a teacher
Exactly. On moderately close examination we see that he can have received very little actual Buddhist training, most of his youthful education having been spent in English language boarding schools. His claim to have been recognized as the (third, belated) tulku of his supposed predecessor is also as shaky as they come: his mother (who didn't, btw, seem to want him around when he was a boy) claims to have had a hand-written note to that effect from Dzongsar Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö, but left it behind in Tibet. Nobody else saw it. Note also that their leaving of Tibet was done relatively early - it was not a "flight" in the dramatic sense, but an orderly, planned departure. It reminds me of those stories with "Yabbazabba Rinpoche recognized me as Wingawanga Tulku and authorized me to teach the Zabbazabba cycle in a private 1-to1 interview on his death bed a few hours before he died."

He managed to parlay these connections up through doing some interpreting, giving pre-teaching and post-teaching pep-talks, then giving actual little teachings, onwards and upwards, collecting students, raising his profile at every step of his long climb. So whatever faults he has, they are those of a travelling salesman, not those of a trained tulku, or even just a recognized one.

My take-away from that shambles is that it is *NOT* enough to be told vague stories; it *IS* ok to want to know where, when, who, how long, and to want to see recognition declarations, Geshe certificates and the like if the would-be teacher is using such qualifications as part of their pitch.

And Peter's last point - that visiting lamas were a large part of how he boosted his cred - is important too. If you have got a bit of a following and ask a lama to visit and teach, with the promise of possibly much-needed financial support, the lama's bodhisattva vow may kick in, with the thought that, "Well, Lama XXX is a bit sus, but my duty is to help an teach the suffering sentient beings who are his followers."
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Fri May 24, 2019 8:53 am

Lots of good points. On a personal note I came across Sogyal more than 30 years ago and did the cross references I advocate in the OP. Including noting even right back then a particular cultic mindset among some of his followers.

The Vajrayana I maintain, is simple in its essence. But we should not be simple minded. Buyer beware.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

Simon E.
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by Simon E. » Fri May 24, 2019 9:06 am

:
smcj wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:45 am
A friend of mine suggests examining a guru by talking to his former students.

I say that as a Lama Norlha student. He wouldn’t do so well by that measure, but I still think it’s a good rule of thumb to go by.
Absolutely. And importantly, if the teacher has a living teacher what does that teacher and her/his students think?

After the CTR fiasco I was VERY cautious about who I received teachings from.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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PeterC
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Re: Vajrayana. It’s Simple.

Post by PeterC » Fri May 24, 2019 10:26 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:35 am
"Yabbazabba Rinpoche recognized me as Wingawanga Tulku and authorized me to teach the Zabbazabba cycle in a private 1-to1 interview on his death bed a few hours before he died."
:rolling:

...or rather, I would be rolling on the floor laughing if that wasn't such an accurate description of so many self-proclaimed teachers...
My take-away from that shambles is that it is *NOT* enough to be told vague stories; it *IS* ok to want to know where, when, who, how long, and to want to see recognition declarations, Geshe certificates and the like if the would-be teacher is using such qualifications as part of their pitch.
One often-seen characteristic of a genuine teacher is that they're very open about who their teachers were, who they received which teachings from, etc. when they then transmit teachings. The ability to conduct due diligence on a teacher easily is important. If you're finding it difficult, then there's usually a reason for that.

By way of example. I was at a teaching with Garchen R. once where he was giving a teaching he had received originally from Khenpo Munsel while the two of them were in prison. He told us which parts had been explained to him by KM, and which parts he had to figure out through practice, and on a couple of lines said "I don't fully understand these, you should ask someone to explain it to you properly", and subsequently arranged for one of the Khenpos present to talk about those parts. These are the things that help you develop confidence in the teacher and the teachings - though in the case of GR, just seeing him can be enough to give one confidence.

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