Iconography identification question

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PeterC
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Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:38 am

Ok guys...

Central figure is maroon, four faces, six arms and four legs. The right hands hold (from top to bottom) khatvanga with the usual three heads, damaru and dorje, left three hands hold skull cup with amrita, some sort of rope or mala (thankga is unclear) and bell. Embraced by dark blue consort with two arms two legs one face offering skullcup of amrita.

Central figure is surrounded by similar figures in blue, yellow, red and green (clockwise from bottom) each embraced by consorts of the same color.

Too many minor figures to enumerate. There’s a cluster of animal-headed dakinis in each of the corners.

Above the main figure is what looks like a red Simhamukha, flanked by (on the left) first Guru Rinpoche, then a figure holding a skullcup of Amrita in left hand, right hand implement not clear, naked upper body, crown, silk robes on lower body; and (on the right) a figure in householders clothes with a white headdress holding what looks like a vase, then to the far right a figure in monastic robes with no implements making a mudra that isn’t particularly clear, but has both hands at his heart center.

Any ideas?

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:16 am

wrathful Bardo-Deities.... :shrug:
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PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:56 am

lelopa wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:16 am
wrathful Bardo-Deities.... :shrug:
It’s not random - it’s a mandala from some terma. But I cannot figure out which one. The central figure is puzzling. No green horse head so not Hayagriva. Wrong hand implements for Vajrakilaya. Wrong color consort for Ratka Yamari. Doesn’t match any form of Chemchok Heruka I can think of. Also red Senge Dongma - not familiar with that in any terma cycles. But...there are so many minor terma cycles, who knows.

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:23 pm

not easy without a picture.....
but I thought a form of Chemchok
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pemachophel
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by pemachophel » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:53 pm

R ed Senge Dongma not that rare. For example, Red Senge Dongma can be found in both the Dudjom Tersar and Pegyal Lingpa's terma.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:46 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:38 am
Any ideas?
Can we see the picture?

PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:33 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:46 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:38 am
Any ideas?
Can we see the picture?
I wasn’t able to take a picture of the thankga, unfortunately. If I see the owner again I’ll ask

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 am

is it possible that it is a fake thangka for tourists?
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PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:34 am

lelopa wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 am
is it possible that it is a fake thangka for tourists?
No. Saw it in a framing shop. It’s good quality, well executed, owned by a serious collector. Judging from the condition and fading of the pigments I would put it at early to mid 20th century.

I’ll try to get a picture in the next couple of days.

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:42 am

PeterC wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:34 am
lelopa wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 am
is it possible that it is a fake thangka for tourists?
No. Saw it in a framing shop. It’s good quality, well executed, owned by a serious collector. Judging from the condition and fading of the pigments I would put it at early to mid 20th century.

I’ll try to get a picture in the next couple of days.
ah...ok!
:smile:
i am very eager to see it
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:42 am
PeterC wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:34 am
lelopa wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:06 am
is it possible that it is a fake thangka for tourists?
No. Saw it in a framing shop. It’s good quality, well executed, owned by a serious collector. Judging from the condition and fading of the pigments I would put it at early to mid 20th century.

I’ll try to get a picture in the next couple of days.
ah...ok!
:smile:
i am very eager to see it
3E5731DA-74DD-46C4-A5C0-A3CBD02D7C62.jpeg
3E5731DA-74DD-46C4-A5C0-A3CBD02D7C62.jpeg (4.64 MiB) Viewed 379 times

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 am

it is Chemchok with usual attributes, etc. & wrathful deities!
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:32 pm

lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 am
it is Chemchok with usual attributes, etc. & wrathful deities!
Which terma of Chemchok do you think it is? The ones I’m familiar with are either a different color, or have lots of hands and faces, or come with a different color dakini

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:40 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:32 pm
lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 am
it is Chemchok with usual attributes, etc. & wrathful deities!
Which terma of Chemchok do you think it is? The ones I’m familiar with are either a different color, or have lots of hands and faces, or come with a different color dakini
i do not know the tradition but searching for Chemchog shows a lot of blue Yum, etc.
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:07 am

lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:40 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:32 pm
lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:56 am
it is Chemchok with usual attributes, etc. & wrathful deities!
Which terma of Chemchok do you think it is? The ones I’m familiar with are either a different color, or have lots of hands and faces, or come with a different color dakini
i do not know the tradition but searching for Chemchog shows a lot of blue Yum, etc.
You’re right. Interesting. Previously I’d only seen Chemchok images where the consort was the same color but a lighter shade

Simhamukha as Khandro, even red, isn’t going to help identify which cycle this three roots comes from. I think the key to identification will be the four figures flanking the Khandro at the top. One is obviously Padmasambhava. Not sure on the others

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:13 am

I think this lionheaded dakini is part of the shitro- mandala
it is not the yidam singhamukha with different attributes.
she is on top in the middle because of the direction ( south, west, east, north)
and not an indication for a special terma!
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:07 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:07 am
lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:40 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:32 pm


Which terma of Chemchok do you think it is? The ones I’m familiar with are either a different color, or have lots of hands and faces, or come with a different color dakini
i do not know the tradition but searching for Chemchog shows a lot of blue Yum, etc.
You’re right. Interesting. Previously I’d only seen Chemchok images where the consort was the same color but a lighter shade

Simhamukha as Khandro, even red, isn’t going to help identify which cycle this three roots comes from. I think the key to identification will be the four figures flanking the Khandro at the top. One is obviously Padmasambhava. Not sure on the others

at the very left is Yeshe Tsogyal
i am not able to identify the terton, or the pandit at the right
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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heart
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by heart » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:41 am

lelopa wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:07 am
PeterC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:07 am
lelopa wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:40 pm


i do not know the tradition but searching for Chemchog shows a lot of blue Yum, etc.
You’re right. Interesting. Previously I’d only seen Chemchok images where the consort was the same color but a lighter shade

Simhamukha as Khandro, even red, isn’t going to help identify which cycle this three roots comes from. I think the key to identification will be the four figures flanking the Khandro at the top. One is obviously Padmasambhava. Not sure on the others

at the very left is Yeshe Tsogyal
i am not able to identify the terton, or the pandit at the right


The pandit is probably Vimalamitra.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

PeterC
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by PeterC » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:03 pm

Feels like we’re closing in here. We’re probably looking for a terton who was a householder who either revealed a terma or had a pure vision involving a dark red Chemchok and a red Simhamukha.

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lelopa
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Re: Iconography identification question

Post by lelopa » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:21 pm

last try: this lionheaded dakini is the normal usual doorkeeper of the west in the wrathful mandala!
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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