The hearer and the sound?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:17 am What we, meaning awareness experiences as sound ( which is, after all, a concept)
is air molecules vibrating the ear drum, and that vibration becoming an electric signal in the brain.
The air molecules aren't the sound.
The ear drum isn't the sound.
The vibration isn't the sound.
The electricity in the neuro-pathways isn't the sound.
Awareness (mind) experiences all those things together as something it calls "sound" rather than say, aroma.


Different for humans and dogs.
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So how you do train?
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Rick
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:03 pm
Rick wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:48 pm Speaking of stupor:

"In mindfulness practice there is no goal, no journey; you are just mindful of what is happening there. There is no promise of love and light or visions of any kind — no angels, no devils. Nothing happens: it is absolutely boring."

Chogyam Trungpa
Is it boring? What happens to subtle bliss man?
The entire quote:

“In mindfulness practice there is no goal, no journey; you are just mindful of what is happening there. There is no promise of love and light or visions of any kind — no angels, no devils. Nothing happens: it is absolutely boring. Sometimes you feel silly. One often asks the question: “Who is kidding whom? Am I on to something or not?” You are not on to something. Travelling the path means you get off everything; there is no place to perch. Sit and feel your breath; be with it ... . Boredom is important because boredom is anti-credential. Credentials are entertaining, always bringing you something new, something lively, something fantastic, all kinds of solutions. When you take away the idea of credentials, there is boredom.”

Chogyam Trungpa
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Okay
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seeker242
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:50 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:03 pm Why make hearer, sound, one and not-one? Why not just "woof woof" when a dog barks and that's it?
I was asked how to become the barking?
Sounds like something my zen teacher would say! Good question! :applause:

Shodo Harada Roshi commented on this in his book Moon by the Window
This line is from the forty-sixth case of the Blue Cliff Record.
Master Kyösei asked a monk, "What is that sound outside the gate?" The monk answered,
"The sound of raindrops." Kyösei, aggrieved by the monk's answer, responded, "Sentient
beings are inverted. They lose themselves and follow after things. "

That which hears the raindrop and that which is being heard are not two separate things.
There is no enlightenment in saying, "The sound of raindrops." As long as we think there
is an "I" listening to some thing that is not-I, we're being moved about by those thoughts.
When we hold on to nothing, we become the sound of the raindrops. The raindrops become
us, and we fill the heavens and the earth with their sound.

We sit zazen and cut off thoughts until we have gone beyond life and death and know
freedom from desire. But can we sustain that state of mind during our daily life? Can we
hold on to nothing in the very midst of using all of our senses?

As long as the listener and the raindrop are two separate things, there is a "me." When
no speck of "me" remains, we know "the sound of raindrops." This state of mind is the
awareness of the raindrops themselves—drip drip drip—falling within the body. If we try
to understand or explain it, we fall into dualism. This is why all that can be said is "drip
drip drip, I am falling." Unless we realize this sound of rain that fills the heavens and the
earth, we will never know true joy.
The part that really stands out for me is: If we try to understand or explain it, we fall into dualism. This is why all that can be said is "drip drip drip,

:applause:
Last edited by seeker242 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Practicing with hearing is cool. Drop all concepts and just focus on the sound. Bring all the energy and attention to it that you can. Where is it perceived? See if you can notice the awareness of the sound as it first arises. Where is this awareness? Who is aware?

Discussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pmDiscussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I have nothing to say / and I am saying it / and that is poetry

John Cage
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Dan74
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Rick wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pmDiscussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I have nothing to say / and I am saying it / and that is poetry

John Cage
I don't know if it is. I guess writing John Cage at the end makes it.

I just shared some instructions I was given. Don't think that amounted to discussion though
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pm Practicing with hearing is cool. Drop all concepts and just focus on the sound. Bring all the energy and attention to it that you can. Where is it perceived? See if you can notice the awareness of the sound as it first arises. Where is this awareness? Who is aware?

Discussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I think it helps us to understand the division of subject and object essentially is self. One Zen master (forgot name) said, “It took me 40 years to smash it into one piece.” Since we are discussing sound is mind, the training is the to dissolve the arising of subject and object to what’s left is just one piece or nature that’s completely clean of everything. I was asked how do I become the barking. This is a very crucial point.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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We are also talking for the eye organ for those who train with eyes. They see very clearly through them like crystal clear lol. We are also talking about feeling for those who use feeling. The flavor is the same is the recognition of no subject and object, but that very recognition eventually needs to be dissolved as well because that recognition is actually a discriminative division and is self. So as we can see how consciousness discrimination manifests at all levels even in subtlety.

That recognition can be introduced in Zen or Dogzchen directly, or we can keep practicing to get there if no teacher is around. And if we get ourselves just by reading or listening, that’s cool too. The journey for Mahayana people is to dissolve that discriminative recognition.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:27 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:23 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pmDiscussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I have nothing to say / and I am saying it / and that is poetry

John Cage
I don't know if it is. I guess writing John Cage at the end makes it.
"Discussions of no use" are sometimes beautiful.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:45 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pm Practicing with hearing is cool. Drop all concepts and just focus on the sound. Bring all the energy and attention to it that you can. Where is it perceived? See if you can notice the awareness of the sound as it first arises. Where is this awareness? Who is aware?

Discussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I think it helps us to understand the division of subject and object essentially is self. One Zen master (forgot name) said, “It took me 40 years to smash it into one piece.” Since we are discussing sound is mind, the training is the to dissolve the arising of subject and object to what’s left is just one piece or nature that’s completely clean of everything. I was asked how do I become the barking. This is a very crucial point.
Why become anything when there is no 'you' to begin with? Becoming the barking seems to me to be barking up the wrong tree, or embarking on a futile quest. :)

Seriously though, when barking, let there be barking. Don't add. Just barking. But if not, it helps to ask a question, IME. Up to you.

And yeah, any conceptualisation misses it.

Division of subject and object, dualistic thinking, reification, and grasping. What comes first?
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:09 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:45 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:58 pm Practicing with hearing is cool. Drop all concepts and just focus on the sound. Bring all the energy and attention to it that you can. Where is it perceived? See if you can notice the awareness of the sound as it first arises. Where is this awareness? Who is aware?

Discussing it seems to me to be of no use really.
I think it helps us to understand the division of subject and object essentially is self. One Zen master (forgot name) said, “It took me 40 years to smash it into one piece.” Since we are discussing sound is mind, the training is the to dissolve the arising of subject and object to what’s left is just one piece or nature that’s completely clean of everything. I was asked how do I become the barking. This is a very crucial point.
Why become anything when there is no 'you' to begin with? Becoming the barking seems to me to be barking up the wrong tree, or embarking on a futile quest.

Any conceptualisation misses it.

Division of subject and object, dualistic thinking, reification, and grasping. What comes first?
The fact that we recognize there is no you is discrimative itself and that’s the function of consciousness because it creates duality what’s nature and what’s not. Consciousness comes first in making distinction from that followed by intention and a series of chained cognitive responses as function of aggregates simultaneously.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:15 pm
Dan74 wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:09 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:45 pm

I think it helps us to understand the division of subject and object essentially is self. One Zen master (forgot name) said, “It took me 40 years to smash it into one piece.” Since we are discussing sound is mind, the training is the to dissolve the arising of subject and object to what’s left is just one piece or nature that’s completely clean of everything. I was asked how do I become the barking. This is a very crucial point.
Why become anything when there is no 'you' to begin with? Becoming the barking seems to me to be barking up the wrong tree, or embarking on a futile quest.

Any conceptualisation misses it.

Division of subject and object, dualistic thinking, reification, and grasping. What comes first?
The fact that we recognize there is no you is discrimative itself and that’s the function of consciousness because it creates duality what’s nature and what’s not.
That's not the actual recognition.
LastLegend wrote:Consciousness comes first in making distinction from that followed by intention and a series of chained cognitive responses as function of aggregates simultaneously.
It seems that ignorance comes first, then separation, then grasping. Or so I was taught. Grasping stops, separation ends, ignorance is rooted out.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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That's not the actual recognition.
True if we just understand with concept. But recognition is not completely clean nature because the work of discriminative consciousness is still at play.

It seems that ignorance comes first, then separation, then grasping. Or so I was taught. Grasping stops, separation ends, ignorance is rooted out.
Many terms are loaded, so we understand aggregates function simultaneously interdependently because they are linked and chained on top with each other. But the discussion of consciousness and intention is more relevant at subtlety or recognition.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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At subtlety level or recognition, one can severe the suffering responses to sensations/feelings and linked perceptions hence still using discrimative consciousness and intention to stop desires and linked perceptions, so what’s left is pure consciousness with simple perception (a table is just a table without a series of responses from the five interchained aggregates) and without suffering responses. No more suffering and rebirth because the chain has broken or completely severed. This is the path of Arahant but Arahant is still discriminative and hasn’t not surpassed consciousness. Still self.

The path of Bodhisattva/Mahayana surpasses consciousness hence training in emptiness as echoed in Heart Sutra to what’s left is nature completely clean of everything, and able to use aggregates to liberate sentient beings while in human form. People can make great personal vows to liberate other sentient beings while those who take path of Arahant has no intention to liberate sentient beings and no great vows. As we can see, causes and effects of practice will yield different fruit different paths. Zen recognizes simple perception isn’t the end.

I think path of Arahant stops at 7 while Bodhisttava path continues training at 8, and done at 9, return to the world at 10.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Consciousness is self is ignorance if can’t surpass its discriminative function. Consciousness is the final barrier; a double edged sword or a tool that can help or harm us. Consciousness is paramount gate to nature; it’s still ignorance until 9 it comes reborn as child wisdom and return to the world for all sentient beings because of initial intention and great vows.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:21 pm how should mind be trained when hearing sound in a way that’s not mistaken as self?
If you regard the self as having some kind of inherent existence,
then, naturally, you'll regard sound as having some kind of inherent existence.
But, if you regard sound as not having any kind of inherent existence.
then use that as a means to realize that the self likewise does not have any kind of inherent existence.

This is a good opportunity to study the Heart Sutra.
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EMPTIFUL.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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LastLegend wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:18 pm how should mind be trained when hearing sound in a way that’s not mistaken as self?
Be in the act of hearing itself, and try to find who/what is hearing the sound, by my understanding.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:28 am
LastLegend wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:21 pm how should mind be trained when hearing sound in a way that’s not mistaken as self?
If you regard the self as having some kind of inherent existence,
then, naturally, you'll regard sound as having some kind of inherent existence.
But, if you regard sound as not having any kind of inherent existence.
then use that as a means to realize that the self likewise does not have any kind of inherent existence.

This is a good opportunity to study the Heart Sutra.
.
.
.
I am thank you.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:31 am
LastLegend wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:18 pm how should mind be trained when hearing sound in a way that’s not mistaken as self?
Be in the act of hearing itself, and try to find who/what is hearing the sound, by my understanding.
That’s cool.
It’s eye blinking.
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