Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Nagarjuna and the Nagas
I am not very learned, hence pls apologize my maybe stupid question:
When Nagarjuna brought several Prajnaparamita texts from the nagas:
- which texts were these?
- was this (is this) Nagaland (East India)?
- was it this journey though which he obtained his name?
- I usually thought that the source for terma are nature's objects or dreams. If in this case the nagas (sentient beings) gave him these texts, does this make these texts also termas?
- when nagas were helpful to Nagarjuna but later they needed be subdued by Padmasambhava, what happened? Were the nagas friend or foe to the Buddhadharma?
Thanks.
When Nagarjuna brought several Prajnaparamita texts from the nagas:
- which texts were these?
- was this (is this) Nagaland (East India)?
- was it this journey though which he obtained his name?
- I usually thought that the source for terma are nature's objects or dreams. If in this case the nagas (sentient beings) gave him these texts, does this make these texts also termas?
- when nagas were helpful to Nagarjuna but later they needed be subdued by Padmasambhava, what happened? Were the nagas friend or foe to the Buddhadharma?
Thanks.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Nagas appear several times in the Sravakayana sutras and suttas, they are connected to the life of Buddha Shakyamuni. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga ... B9%83yutta
The english word snake is etymologically connected to the word Naga, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga#Etymology
The english word snake is etymologically connected to the word Naga, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga#Etymology
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
No, not Naga Land, but yes, the land of the Nagas. We're talking about non-human Nagas, one of the so-called eight classes of spirits in Buddhism.
Yes, it was due to this that Nagarjuna received His name.
Yes, functionally, these are terma. However, in the Tibetan tradition, they are not usually spoken of as terma and they are not punctuated with the ter-shad, the special mark at the end of each line of terma. Nevertheless, Nagajuna's receipt of these teachings from the Nagas is one of the underpinnings of the theory of terma within Nyingma.
There is a whole world of Nagas: good Nagas, bad Nagas, different races, different castes, and living in different places. So the Nagas that helped Nagarjuna are not necessarily the same Nagas subdued by Guru Rinpoche. Further, because Nagas are hyper-quick to take offense, even Nagas who have been previously subdued may need to be subdued again if they perceive they have been harmed by humans. It's not a "once and done" kind of thing.
Yes, it was due to this that Nagarjuna received His name.
Yes, functionally, these are terma. However, in the Tibetan tradition, they are not usually spoken of as terma and they are not punctuated with the ter-shad, the special mark at the end of each line of terma. Nevertheless, Nagajuna's receipt of these teachings from the Nagas is one of the underpinnings of the theory of terma within Nyingma.
There is a whole world of Nagas: good Nagas, bad Nagas, different races, different castes, and living in different places. So the Nagas that helped Nagarjuna are not necessarily the same Nagas subdued by Guru Rinpoche. Further, because Nagas are hyper-quick to take offense, even Nagas who have been previously subdued may need to be subdued again if they perceive they have been harmed by humans. It's not a "once and done" kind of thing.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
pemachophel- good post.
it appears only at the end of each line?
Does it also appear in the sadhana's which come from terma traditions?
Can you share this mark?pemachophel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:43 pmpunctuated with the ter-shad, the special mark at the end of each line of terma.
it appears only at the end of each line?
Does it also appear in the sadhana's which come from terma traditions?
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Fortyeight Vows,
Two small circles, one above the other, separated by a short horizontal line.
Yes, at the end of each line. Yes, also in all terma sadhanas.
If you're reading a terma sadhana, you can see immediately what is the original text of the terma and what are later additions. Later additions will only be punctuated by a regular shad (she).
Two small circles, one above the other, separated by a short horizontal line.
Yes, at the end of each line. Yes, also in all terma sadhanas.
If you're reading a terma sadhana, you can see immediately what is the original text of the terma and what are later additions. Later additions will only be punctuated by a regular shad (she).
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Thank you very much sir!
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
In Venerable Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakośakārikābhāṣya, interestingly enough, in the Loka division, Ch 3, a birth as a nāga is classified as a birth into the animal realm, because the nāgas are treated by Ven Vasubandhu, in that text, as simply snakes.
There was a belief in ancient India that snakes could, if left alone, simply continue to live indefinitely; shedding skin and growing in size and wisdom as time passed on. In Abhidharmakośakārikābhāṣya in particular, the lifespan of a nāgarāja is given by Ven Vasubandhu as equal to one kalpa at it's apex.
For added context, we can turn to Venerable Chim Jampaiyang's Ornament of Abhidharma: A Commentary on Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa as translated by Venerable Jampa Ignyen, where it is clarified that this aeon/kalpa lifespan is an intermediate kalpa.
So the nāgāḥ, in some Buddhisms, get their wisdom from their long lives, but are essentially mundane snakes, being classed as an animal as a birth. Sources may vary.
It makes sense, the nāgāḥ being a class of spirit beings or devāḥ/gods of some sort, though, so I certainly see how conclusions on this could vary depending on the perspective.
There was a belief in ancient India that snakes could, if left alone, simply continue to live indefinitely; shedding skin and growing in size and wisdom as time passed on. In Abhidharmakośakārikābhāṣya in particular, the lifespan of a nāgarāja is given by Ven Vasubandhu as equal to one kalpa at it's apex.
For added context, we can turn to Venerable Chim Jampaiyang's Ornament of Abhidharma: A Commentary on Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa as translated by Venerable Jampa Ignyen, where it is clarified that this aeon/kalpa lifespan is an intermediate kalpa.
So the nāgāḥ, in some Buddhisms, get their wisdom from their long lives, but are essentially mundane snakes, being classed as an animal as a birth. Sources may vary.
It makes sense, the nāgāḥ being a class of spirit beings or devāḥ/gods of some sort, though, so I certainly see how conclusions on this could vary depending on the perspective.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Once I was talking about yetis with one of my Teachers. She said that once, when She was in retreat in Tibet (probably in the 1940s), a yeti came and brought offerings to Her regularly. It would sometimes climb onto the roof of Her retreat cabin. She said that yetis are both an animal and a spirit. So the idea that Nagas are both animals and spirits works for me.
I had not previously heard about how long Nagas can live and that Their wisdom comes from such long life. There is a story in China of Sun Si-miao, a famous doctor in the Tang dynasty curing a small snake. Then the snake's father, the local Dragon King (Lung Wang)/Naga King (Lu Gyal) of the mountain on which Sun was living, came to him in gratitude and taught him all sorts of secret healing lore. My point being that the child was merely a snake, but the father was a Dragon King/Naga King. So maybe Nagas start off as snakes but then, if they live long enough, They become Nagas which, due to Their wisdom, are something more than just animals and croiss over into becoming a spirit. Just a thought.
Sorry for my flight of fancy.
I had not previously heard about how long Nagas can live and that Their wisdom comes from such long life. There is a story in China of Sun Si-miao, a famous doctor in the Tang dynasty curing a small snake. Then the snake's father, the local Dragon King (Lung Wang)/Naga King (Lu Gyal) of the mountain on which Sun was living, came to him in gratitude and taught him all sorts of secret healing lore. My point being that the child was merely a snake, but the father was a Dragon King/Naga King. So maybe Nagas start off as snakes but then, if they live long enough, They become Nagas which, due to Their wisdom, are something more than just animals and croiss over into becoming a spirit. Just a thought.
Sorry for my flight of fancy.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Thanks all! Verry much appreciated.
On the nagas:
Do they vary in shape or are they all snake-like
Do they live here or in their own realms somewhere else?
Was (is??) it normal that someone receives a new name when something special has been accomplished or or is this reserved to the heroes like Nagarjuna?
Is it believed that at one point Nagarjuna has taken rebirth, that there was a lineage of his?
On the nagas:
Do they vary in shape or are they all snake-like
Do they live here or in their own realms somewhere else?
Was (is??) it normal that someone receives a new name when something special has been accomplished or or is this reserved to the heroes like Nagarjuna?
Is it believed that at one point Nagarjuna has taken rebirth, that there was a lineage of his?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Nagas belong to the eight classes of nonhuman beings that are usually present in the event of teaching the Mahayana sutras.
Eight kinds of nonhuman beings [八部衆](jpn
hachibu-shu): Also, eight kinds of beings or eight kinds of guardians. Beings referred to in Buddhist scriptures as protectors of Buddhism. They are deva, or heavenly beings; nāga, or dragons; a kind of demon called yaksha; gods of music called gandharva; belligerent demons called asura; garuda, birds that prey on dragons; kimnara, gods with beautiful voices; and mahoraga, gods in snake forms. Buddhist scriptures refer to the eight kinds of nonhuman beings either individually or with expressions such as “heavenly beings (or gods), dragons, and others of the eight kinds of nonhuman beings.” The eight kinds of nonhuman beings are often described as attendants at the assembly of the Buddha’s preaching.
(quoted from Nichiren Buddhism Library)
Nagas can appear in different guises, in the Muccalinda sutta the naga Muccalinda appears also in the form of a young man. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Eight classes of gods and demons (lha srin sde brgyad). There are various descriptions but in the sutras the most general is:
devas,
nagas,
yakshas,
gandharvas,
asuras,
garudas,
kinnaras, and
mahoragas.
All of them were able to receive and practice the teachings of the Buddha. These eight classes can also refer to various types of mundane spirits who can cause either help or harm, but remain invisible to normal human beings. (Chinese Buddhism Encyclopedia)
There is a traditional biography of Nagarjuna that exists in chinese Tripitaka. It is included in the work Lives of Great Monks and Nuns (as english translation) https://web.archive.org/web/20150920131 ... s_2002.pdf
Eight kinds of nonhuman beings [八部衆](jpn
hachibu-shu): Also, eight kinds of beings or eight kinds of guardians. Beings referred to in Buddhist scriptures as protectors of Buddhism. They are deva, or heavenly beings; nāga, or dragons; a kind of demon called yaksha; gods of music called gandharva; belligerent demons called asura; garuda, birds that prey on dragons; kimnara, gods with beautiful voices; and mahoraga, gods in snake forms. Buddhist scriptures refer to the eight kinds of nonhuman beings either individually or with expressions such as “heavenly beings (or gods), dragons, and others of the eight kinds of nonhuman beings.” The eight kinds of nonhuman beings are often described as attendants at the assembly of the Buddha’s preaching.
(quoted from Nichiren Buddhism Library)
Nagas can appear in different guises, in the Muccalinda sutta the naga Muccalinda appears also in the form of a young man. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Eight classes of gods and demons (lha srin sde brgyad). There are various descriptions but in the sutras the most general is:
devas,
nagas,
yakshas,
gandharvas,
asuras,
garudas,
kinnaras, and
mahoragas.
All of them were able to receive and practice the teachings of the Buddha. These eight classes can also refer to various types of mundane spirits who can cause either help or harm, but remain invisible to normal human beings. (Chinese Buddhism Encyclopedia)
There is a traditional biography of Nagarjuna that exists in chinese Tripitaka. It is included in the work Lives of Great Monks and Nuns (as english translation) https://web.archive.org/web/20150920131 ... s_2002.pdf
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Many theories are based on sutras and stories and some visionary experiences in later time. You can check Jataka Stories. You may get some insight about their characteristics and abode from (earlier) Buddhist prospective. Few are:At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of generation of nāgas. What four? Nāgas born from eggs, nāgas born from the womb, nāgas born from moisture, nāgas of spontaneous birth. These are the four modes of generation of nāgas.”
Samyutta Nikaya (Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi)
No. 506.: Campeyya-Jātaka
No. 524.: Saṁkhapāla-Jātaka
No. 543.: Bhūridatta-Jātaka
Re: Nagarjuna and the Nagas
Many thanks for the information about the eight kinds of beings. It seems they all are also found in early Buddhist texts. Possibly only the term for the classification as eight kinds seems exclusively Mahayana (?).Aemilius wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:12 am Nagas belong to the eight classes of nonhuman beings that are usually present in the event of teaching the Mahayana sutras.
Eight kinds of nonhuman beings [八部衆](jpn
hachibu-shu): Also, eight kinds of beings or eight kinds of guardians. Beings referred to in Buddhist scriptures as protectors of Buddhism. They are
deva, or heavenly beings;
nāga, or dragons;
a kind of demon called yaksha;
gods of music called gandharva;
belligerent demons called asura;
garuda, birds that prey on dragons;
kimnara, gods with beautiful voices;
and mahoraga, gods in snake forms.