sang without transmission

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SilenceMonkey
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sang without transmission

Post by SilenceMonkey » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm

Can one do sang without transmission?

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heart
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:36 pm

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?
I did for many years, just recently got the "lung". If you can get the "lung" and "tri" it is a lot better because you will not have doubts. Doubts is really bad news for practice. Even just getting the permission to do it will help.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Mantrik
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:46 am

This thread also has some useful advice:

viewtopic.php?t=13163
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

pemachophel
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by pemachophel » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:52 pm

I don't know which sang you are interested in practicing, but, after thinking about this for two days, why not A) do some other practice now which doesn't need lung/oral transmission and B) make a firm resolve to get lung for sang as soon as possible? There are so, so many wonderful practices from the sutras that don't, strictly speaking, require lung. To do sang, on the other hand, one really should receive the lung. Sang is a Tantrayana/Vajrayana practice, and many sangs are terma, including the famous Riwo Sangchod. I agree with Magnus that doubt is a huge enemy to the successful practice of Vajrayana. Since you've posed this question, it suggests you do have some doubt. So why not practice something else for the time being where there is no doubt?

Just my two cents.

If you PM me, maybe I can help you fgiure out how to get lung.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?
it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?
it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.
Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

pemachophel
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by pemachophel » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm

"Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma."

This is one opinion. However, not all Lamas agree with this. Two years ago, Tulku Sang-ngag gave a very masterful rebuttal to this opinion. "Naga Amendment of Breaches" includes sang and is a sutra clearly and umabiguously incorporating the words of the Buddha.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:03 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
"Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma."

This is one opinion. However, not all Lamas agree with this. Two years ago, Tulku Sang-ngag gave a very masterful rebuttal to this opinion. "Naga Amendment of Breaches" includes sang and is a sutra clearly and umabiguously incorporating the words of the Buddha.
In my opinion it doesn't matter if you can follow a particular practice to India, the principle is what matters. If someone i Italy make tsog with "prosciutto crudo" and a bootle of Brunello wine, are they not doing tsog? Of course they are even if those substances are unknown in Tibet and India. Is Dzogchen or Anuyoga (according to ChNNR it is from Tuja) not Buddha Dharma, of course they are.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Vasana
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Vasana » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:11 pm

Smoke offering predates Buddhism in Tibet. Propagating mountain and other gods and spirits was common in Bon. Purifying outsiders with juniper smoke when they arrived from beyond the vilage was also common.

You may not be following a sang sadhana, but you can still offer aromas to the Buddhist feild of merit and maybe other beings and the environment will respond positively too. That's a kind of sang by nature but not an actual sang practice. A lung for sang is best to ensure you don't make mistakes when inviting other guests.

Cultivating bodhichitta and a felt sense of compassion for all beings is the essence and can also have positive effects even if you are not physically offering anything.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:21 pm
Can one do sang without transmission?
it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.
Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm


it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.
Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Mantrik
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am


Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:13 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm


it was a bön practice.
So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
No more ambitious than claiming they originate specifically with Buddhism, surely.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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heart
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by heart » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:55 pm


it depends. if you want a particular TB sang practice, you should ask a TB teacher.

Sang offering is an aborigen thing, a tibetan practice, and afaik it doesn't have roots in buddhadharma. Maybe you can just make aromatic smoke and offer it.
Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
And so? Dzogchen is a Bön practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Mantrik
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:37 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:13 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:49 pm


So were prayer flags, and probably a bunch of stuff. I am not sure they this makes them non-Buddhist though.
Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
No more ambitious than claiming they originate specifically with Buddhism, surely.
'Specifically' is fine. 'Exclusively' would be the same sort of fantasy claim.
pemachophel gave an example of a Buddhist ritual linked to Shakyamuni - oddly, that was ignored.
Just how many cultures burned aromatic woods, leaves, resins etc.? Fire and smoke are pretty global phenomena in religion, shamanism etc. If we are looking for ancient Indian fire and smoke ritual origins, well, Homa anyone?
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:49 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:13 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm

Being Tibetan does not make a practice Bon. Being Bon does not make the practices pre-Buddhist. Wiki is a dangerous source, but does identify very ancient use of incense in India. I think we are in the realms of 'nobody knows' and to claim to know as a certainty that the origin was Bon and also pre-Buddhist is, to be kind, ambitious.
No more ambitious than claiming they originate specifically with Buddhism, surely.
'Specifically' is fine. 'Exclusively' would be the same sort of fantasy claim.
pemachophel gave an example of a Buddhist ritual linked to Shakyamuni - oddly, that was ignored.
Just how many cultures burned aromatic woods, leaves, resins etc.? Fire and smoke are pretty global phenomena in religion, shamanism etc. If we are looking for ancient Indian fire and smoke ritual origins, well, Homa anyone?
Stop with the assumptions, I didn't ignore anything. I've been to teachings where they reference just this sutra (i'm 99% sure) when I received lung for a Sang practice, I still think it's pretty likely to be an indigenous practice originally - indeed existing across various cultures. That said, as i mentioned, being such an indigenous practice would not make it un-Buddhist, as we have innumerable examples of just such indigenous practice which became part of Dharma, and really much of Vajrayana has an undercurrent of this theme. I am not a purist in either camp, I'll leave to ideologues and scholars to hash that out.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Mantrik
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Mantrik » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:32 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:49 pm
Stop with the assumptions, I didn't ignore anything.
It is you doing the assuming here - that I meant 'you'. And then launching into more about 'you'. I recall asking 'anyone'.
I was discussing the likelihood of Bon being the exclusive origin of bsang offerings, and saw no response to a very relevant contribution.
I'll leave you to talk some more about yourself. ;)
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:45 pm

Ok, watch your tone dude, and i'll do the same. I don't like to mysteriously dissappear posts but your condescension is over the line.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

SilenceMonkey
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Re: sang without transmission

Post by SilenceMonkey » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:47 pm

What have I started... :jawdrop: :juggling: :lol:

Interesting discussion on the origins of sang :)

Good advice Mantrik and Pema Chopel~ I am doing other practice now and have a resolve to get lung for riwo sangcho in the near future! :namaste:

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Re: sang without transmission

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:03 am

heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:28 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:37 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:45 am


Just because they haven't found any signs of smoke offering in India it isn't the same as saying it is a Tibetan thing. Could have come from somewhere else like Anuyoga. You know an other practice that they didn't find (yet) in India? Dzogchen. So I guess you don't think Dzogchen is based in Buddha dharma either?

Sang is solid Buddha dharma, it is obvious when you read the texts. Just like water offering, flower offering, light offering and so on.

/magnus
it was a bön practice.
And so? Dzogchen is a Bön practice.

/magnus
Dzogchen has nothing to do with ancient Bön.

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