Reincarnated Lamas

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Mirror
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Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Mirror » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm

If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes? Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma? I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes? Thank you for purifying my delusions

:anjali:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Punya
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Punya » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:57 am

Mirror wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm
If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes?
As an example to us. The story of Padmasambava is instructive in this regard.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:35 am

I used to play guitar quite a bit. Then I gave it up. After a few years I tried to pick it up again. I was so rusty I had to almost start from scratch. However I progressed very very quickly. But that only lasted until I got close to the level of playing I was at when I put it down. Then improving beyond my former proficiency was just as difficult as when I gave it up.

So between lifetimes they get rusty, but they can re-learn quickly.

As to dramas and difficulties, we’ll let’s just say the have karmic entanglement with us.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

yagmort
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by yagmort » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:19 am

they are here to benefit other beings. i don't think they need to purify their negative karma. imagine a prison you once escaped. you know the route out or you may figure a new one. you decided to go back to help your inmates escape. you wear prison clothes again and you are under the same strict rules as anyone else, your are no different from other inmates, the only difference is your knowledge that escape is possible.

smcj
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:27 am

yagmort wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:19 am
they are here to benefit other beings. i don't think they need to purify their negative karma. imagine a prison you once escaped. you know the route out or you may figure a new one. you decided to go back to help your inmates escape. you wear prison clothes again and you are under the same strict rules as anyone else, your are no different from other inmates, the only difference is your knowledge that escape is possible.
I like that.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

TrimePema
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 am

Mirror wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm
If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes? Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma? I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes? Thank you for purifying my delusions

:anjali:
Maybe I'm wrong about this but my understanding is:

In the Hinayana, it is said that Shakyamuni Buddha was an ordinary human being who attained enlightenment through practice in this very lifetime and, having discovered that path, turned the wheel of dharma.

In the Mahayana, it is said Shakyamuni Buddha attained Buddhahood previously, emanated an entire Buddhafield in which this planet Earth is one of the impure purelands, and emanated as an ordinary human (although He emanated as a human that didnt take birth from the womb so maybe that's not ordinary) into this Saha world system in order to turn the wheel of dharma for sentient beings taking rebirth in it.

Point being: in the Mahayana, enlightened beings display the entirety of the path. They don't just fly around in rainbow bodies. They display the path in a rainbow body that seems like an ordinary one and even let their bodies die for the sake of sentient beings. It is not the intention of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to be some kind of superior being to ordinary beings still under the defects of samsara, it is their intention to help ordinary beings realize they are the same as the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and open to that realization called enlightenment.

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heart
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:23 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 am

Maybe I'm wrong about this but my understanding is:

In the Hinayana, it is said that Shakyamuni Buddha was an ordinary human being who attained enlightenment through practice in this very lifetime and, having discovered that path, turned the wheel of dharma.
The jataka tales about Shakyamunis previous lives are from the Tripitaka, so that isn't correct. In fact according to the Shravaka yana it takes a very long time, countless lives, to become a Buddha.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Mirror
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Mirror » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:56 pm

smcj wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:35 am
I used to play guitar quite a bit. Then I gave it up. After a few years I tried to pick it up again. I was so rusty I had to almost start from scratch. However I progressed very very quickly. But that only lasted until I got close to the level of playing I was at when I put it down. Then improving beyond my former proficiency was just as difficult as when I gave it up.
This explains many things, but still I have heard from some lamas, that the spiritual development can be taken with you. If what you are saying is true, than if I don't encounter buddhism and renew back my knowledge from my former lifes, then it would be hidden from me
yagmort wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:19 am
i don't think they need to purify their negative karma.
I heard that many times. Without purifying one's bad karma, one can't attain enlightenment.

Still I think there are lamas who in their former lifes purified their bad karma, but they still suffer from difficutlies.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Mirror
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Mirror » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:04 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 am
Point being: in the Mahayana, enlightened beings display the entirety of the path. They don't just fly around in rainbow bodies. They display the path in a rainbow body that seems like an ordinary one and even let their bodies die for the sake of sentient beings. It is not the intention of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to be some kind of superior being to ordinary beings still under the defects of samsara, it is their intention to help ordinary beings realize they are the same as the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and open to that realization called enlightenment.
I understand, but I was told that if I cultivate Bodhicitta I will benefit from it in my future lifes even as an animal or other forms of life.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

yagmort
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by yagmort » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:33 pm

Mirror wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:56 pm
yagmort wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:19 am
i don't think they need to purify their negative karma.
I heard that many times. Without purifying one's bad karma, one can't attain enlightenment.

Still I think there are lamas who in their former lifes purified their bad karma, but they still suffer from difficutlies.
it seems your logic is that attaining enlightenment and/or purifying negative karma should grant a reincarnated lama an easy life without difficulties. if you come to help other beings who are in dirt then how do you help them out without getting dirty yourself?

or maybe you talk about lamas who still have to purify their bad karma and who didn't attain enlightenment yet. i talk about those who did and who consciously take reincarnation to benefit others. those don't need to purify negative karma unless they accumulate some yet again during reincarnation. here's an example about Dodrupchen Rinpoche which explains what i m trying to say, he was in chinese prison when this happened: "...In 1961, an operation was performed on him, and in the operation they used the blood of a Muslim butcher. Later, when he learned about the transfusion, he didn't want to live anymore. He wouldn't listen to the whispered pleading and hidden tears of his disciples. To Dzakhen Lama, one of the grieving disciples, he said, - "I am not forced to be in this prison because of my past karma. I am here for a purpose. I have no difficulty going to any kind of pure lands, if I choose. Don't worry for me!..."

pemachophel
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by pemachophel » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:44 pm

Mirror,

You're taking what you see at face value, believing in the seemingly dualisitc display and then thinking about what you see with your deluded mind. This is what all we sentient beings do, but, if you could develop pure perception, things might look totally different to you. At the moment, you seem stuck on an objectivist view of the world as real as you currently see it. That's exactly the problem Buddhism seeks to remedy.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

smcj
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by smcj » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:30 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:44 pm
Mirror,

You're taking what you see at face value, believing in the seemingly dualisitc display and then thinking about what you see with your deluded mind. This is what all we sentient beings do, but, if you could develop pure perception, things might look totally different to you. At the moment, you seem stuck on an objectivist view of the world as real as you currently see it. That's exactly the problem Buddhism seeks to remedy.
Not a popular idea. However—
:good:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Simon E.
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Simon E. » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Mirror wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm
If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes? Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma? I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes? Thank you for purifying my delusions

:anjali:
An extremely good and timely question Mirror at a time when so called “tulkus” are falling off the perch on a daily basis and even HHDL is questioning what is clearly a corrupted and redundant political manoeuvre. An idea whose time is well past.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

TrimePema
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:56 pm

heart wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:23 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 am

Maybe I'm wrong about this but my understanding is:

In the Hinayana, it is said that Shakyamuni Buddha was an ordinary human being who attained enlightenment through practice in this very lifetime and, having discovered that path, turned the wheel of dharma.
The jataka tales about Shakyamunis previous lives are from the Tripitaka, so that isn't correct. In fact according to the Shravaka yana it takes a very long time, countless lives, to become a Buddha.

/magnus
Is attaining enlightenment not a requisite for emanating a Supreme Nirmanakaya?

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heart
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:01 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:56 pm
heart wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:23 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:48 am

Maybe I'm wrong about this but my understanding is:

In the Hinayana, it is said that Shakyamuni Buddha was an ordinary human being who attained enlightenment through practice in this very lifetime and, having discovered that path, turned the wheel of dharma.
The jataka tales about Shakyamunis previous lives are from the Tripitaka, so that isn't correct. In fact according to the Shravaka yana it takes a very long time, countless lives, to become a Buddha.

/magnus
Is attaining enlightenment not a requisite for emanating a Supreme Nirmanakaya?
That is the Mahayana point of view.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Mirror
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:53 am

Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by Mirror » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:40 pm

yagmort wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:33 pm
it seems your logic is that attaining enlightenment and/or purifying negative karma should grant a reincarnated lama an easy life without difficulties. if you come to help other beings who are in dirt then how do you help them out without getting dirty yourself?

or maybe you talk about lamas who still have to purify their bad karma and who didn't attain enlightenment yet. i talk about those who did and who consciously take reincarnation to benefit others. those don't need to purify negative karma unless they accumulate some yet again during reincarnation. here's an example about Dodrupchen Rinpoche which explains what i m trying to say, he was in chinese prison when this happened: "...In 1961, an operation was performed on him, and in the operation they used the blood of a Muslim butcher. Later, when he learned about the transfusion, he didn't want to live anymore. He wouldn't listen to the whispered pleading and hidden tears of his disciples. To Dzakhen Lama, one of the grieving disciples, he said, - "I am not forced to be in this prison because of my past karma. I am here for a purpose. I have no difficulty going to any kind of pure lands, if I choose. Don't worry for me!..."
:good: , When he was born was he enlightened? Nowadays it's his fourth reincarnation, so on the basis of what I was taught is that he should possesses enlightened qualities since his birth, because he has mastered them in his former lifes.
pemachophel wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:44 pm
Mirror,

You're taking what you see at face value, believing in the seemingly dualisitc display and then thinking about what you see with your deluded mind. This is what all we sentient beings do, but, if you could develop pure perception, things might look totally different to you. At the moment, you seem stuck on an objectivist view of the world as real as you currently see it. That's exactly the problem Buddhism seeks to remedy.
I understand, but still I think that even with a deluded mind we can recognize spiritual development. It was said that our minds are connected and I haven't really met any lama, whose behaviour was same as an ordinary being with a deluded mind.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

TrimePema
Posts: 366
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:43 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:01 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:56 pm
heart wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:23 pm


The jataka tales about Shakyamunis previous lives are from the Tripitaka, so that isn't correct. In fact according to the Shravaka yana it takes a very long time, countless lives, to become a Buddha.

/magnus
Is attaining enlightenment not a requisite for emanating a Supreme Nirmanakaya?
That is the Mahayana point of view.

/magnus
What I am trying to say is (similarly to Pema-la) the OP seems to have confused two points of view.

Shakyamuni (under a Mahayana pov) became a Buddha in a previous lifetime and emanated as a Supreme Nirmanakaya for the benefit of beings here. He then displayed the entire path up to and including becoming a fully enlightened Buddha and turning the wheel of Dharma, displaying parinirvana and so on... OR one could see it as Shakyamuni Buddha being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened because He worked hard and followed the correct path.
Likewise, OP can see Tulkus (Nirmanakayas) from the point of view of having emanated here and displaying various traits for the benefit of those who benefit from connecting with said Tulku via said traits. This is analogous to how we can connect with the Buddha through seeing Him as an ordinary human, even though He was already enlightened.

OP, if you want to read more about the Guru principle, which might help you understand how to use Tulkus as a tool on the path, try giving The Guru Drinks Bourbon? by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche a read.

TrimePema
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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by TrimePema » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:49 pm

Mirror wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm
If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes? Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma? I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes? Thank you for purifying my delusions

:anjali:
If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes?
This is your view, not necessarily reality. The answer is they do it for you, so you can relate to them without all the bs that comes from thinking they are "superior" beings like God or something and you can never be like them. They show you exactly what to do.

BUT there is also the fact that this is a degenerate age. In a degenerate age, karma from many beings is accelerated and the connections are very complex. For this reason, in order to benefit beings, sometimes a tulku cannot manifest as a public Guru or something because they might cause many grave misunderstandings in the deluded minds of sentient beings just by manifesting that way. Some Gurus take the form of secret Gurus and only teach one or two students or teach entirely in secret to a number of groups, even if they have an "impressive" reincarnation line or qualifications to be a Rinpoche or high lama.

Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma?

For you. And also due to the karma of students/beings they are connected with/appear to in this very lifetime.

I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes?
For you and also same as above.

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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:21 am

TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:43 pm
... OR one could see it as Shakyamuni Buddha being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened because He worked hard and followed the correct path.
There is no Buddhism where Shakyamuni Buddha is seen as "being an ordinary human who happened to become enlightened".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Reincarnated Lamas

Post by heart » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:40 am

Mirror wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:01 pm
If the enlightenment is causing you to not be reborn in samsara again, unless you wish to be reborn again for the sake of all sentient beings, then why minds of the ones who have decided to do so are again ordinary or at least not as highly realised as is was in their former lifes? Why these masters again experience difficulties, when in order to attain enlightenment, they had to purify all their negative past karma? I don't want to be rude, but the perfect examples are HH Dalai Lama, HH Karmapa and other reincarnated Lamas. If the realisations can be taken with oneself after one's death, why these reincarnated lamas have to practise Dharma practices again, even though they had practised them in former lifes? Thank you for purifying my delusions

:anjali:
All sentient beings will experience sickness, old age and death. It is unavoidable. On the top of that there is a lot of other suffering like meeting the ones you don't want to meet, separating from those you want to be with and so on. Even if you are realised in a previous life, when you take a human body you will meet these sufferings again, because there is no way to avoid them in the world we are living in. How these masters are handling this situation of being a human is very difficult to say. We don't know their minds so we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that they are suffering in the same way we do. As a minimum they will have confidence in the path.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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