Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Hansei
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei »

Vasana wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:30 am In Rinpoche's own writing.
:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Vasana »

Can anyone kindly send me the mp3 for the Guru Yoga of the white Ah (Garab Dorje) ? I have email proof of receipt from shangshung but I think it could be quicker getting it resent this way :group:
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

So, mourning time is over for few weeks and still no announcenment about how will be community in future, what are plans about carrying transmission to possible new commers, who will lead community and so on. I suppose we have here some guys from international gakyil. If so, could anyone comment on this questions, please? What are the plans how will Rinpoches special transmission survive more then our own generation? If there are any...
Sincerely thank you for answers!

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:33 pm So, mourning time is over for few weeks and still no announcenment about how will be community in future, what are plans about carrying transmission to possible new commers, who will lead community and so on. I suppose we have here some guys from international gakyil. If so, could anyone comment on this questions, please? What are the plans how will Rinpoches special transmission survive more then our own generation? If there are any...
Sincerely thank you for answers!

:namaste:
I don't see an announcement coming.
I have full confidence that our guru knew exactly what he was doing and that there are students of his practicing and upholding his transmission wholeheartedly.
Hopefully the transmission manifests organically.
Kye ma!
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Josef wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:33 pm So, mourning time is over for few weeks and still no announcenment about how will be community in future, what are plans about carrying transmission to possible new commers, who will lead community and so on. I suppose we have here some guys from international gakyil. If so, could anyone comment on this questions, please? What are the plans how will Rinpoches special transmission survive more then our own generation? If there are any...
Sincerely thank you for answers!

:namaste:
I don't see an announcement coming.
I have full confidence that our guru knew exactly what he was doing and that there are students of his practicing and upholding his transmission wholeheartedly.
Hopefully the transmission manifests organically.
Yeah, but that's just one part of the equation. I'm not worried about individuals continuing to practice, but organizations need some kind of well...organization. It would be nice to know what the DC has planned for the future, especially with the implication that there would indeed be some sort of plan.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:19 am
Josef wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:33 pm So, mourning time is over for few weeks and still no announcenment about how will be community in future, what are plans about carrying transmission to possible new commers, who will lead community and so on. I suppose we have here some guys from international gakyil. If so, could anyone comment on this questions, please? What are the plans how will Rinpoches special transmission survive more then our own generation? If there are any...
Sincerely thank you for answers!

:namaste:
I don't see an announcement coming.
I have full confidence that our guru knew exactly what he was doing and that there are students of his practicing and upholding his transmission wholeheartedly.
Hopefully the transmission manifests organically.
Yeah, but that's just one part of the equation. I'm not worried about individuals continuing to practice, but organizations need some kind of well...organization. It would be nice to know what the DC has planned for the future, especially with the implication that there would indeed be some sort of plan.
Agree. This is a practical issue about the propagation of the termas he held. Either there's someone who will continue to transmit them - or there isn't. And if there isn't, then we are the last generation that will practice them, which is very sad: and it's going to be increasingly hard to get people to engage with and fund the organization, because they will all be dying off and nobody will be receiving new teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:19 am
Josef wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:33 pm So, mourning time is over for few weeks and still no announcenment about how will be community in future, what are plans about carrying transmission to possible new commers, who will lead community and so on. I suppose we have here some guys from international gakyil. If so, could anyone comment on this questions, please? What are the plans how will Rinpoches special transmission survive more then our own generation? If there are any...
Sincerely thank you for answers!

:namaste:
I don't see an announcement coming.
I have full confidence that our guru knew exactly what he was doing and that there are students of his practicing and upholding his transmission wholeheartedly.
Hopefully the transmission manifests organically.
Yeah, but that's just one part of the equation. I'm not worried about individuals continuing to practice, but organizations need some kind of well...organization. It would be nice to know what the DC has planned for the future, especially with the implication that there would indeed be some sort of plan.
There was a slight reshuffle of the organizations that was talked about at the last ICC meeting/IDC AGM to account for the fact that there is no longer one sole authority to be referred back to. I imagine that there will continue to be some adjustments like that over time, what else do you expect might happen? There's already a lot of 'organization' in our organizations. The various bodies connected to the IDC are still operating largely as they were before Rinpoche passed away.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:59 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:19 am
Josef wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:38 pm

I don't see an announcement coming.
I have full confidence that our guru knew exactly what he was doing and that there are students of his practicing and upholding his transmission wholeheartedly.
Hopefully the transmission manifests organically.
Yeah, but that's just one part of the equation. I'm not worried about individuals continuing to practice, but organizations need some kind of well...organization. It would be nice to know what the DC has planned for the future, especially with the implication that there would indeed be some sort of plan.
Agree. This is a practical issue about the propagation of the termas he held. Either there's someone who will continue to transmit them - or there isn't. And if there isn't, then we are the last generation that will practice them, which is very sad: and it's going to be increasingly hard to get people to engage with and fund the organization, because they will all be dying off and nobody will be receiving new teachings.
My take on that is basically, who knows...? There's no one right now. Will there be again in the future? Maybe. I hope so. But right now there's not, so there's not much to do other than to take responsibility for ourselves and get on with practicing what we're received.

There's lots of things that can be taught openly, and it seems the intention is that those open teachings are part of the way the community will continue to engage with the world at large. It will be a difficult time of course, and people will no doubt drift away, but those of us who care deeply about this transmission should try to support it.

There's only one way genuine lineages continue, some student of the master attains sufficient understanding, and more importantly realization, of their masters teachings, so they can continue to teach themselves. That's not the responsibility of the International Gakyil or any other board of people or organization, that's the responsibility of every individual student of Rinpoche's. We should be taking our own practice seriously, and perhaps for most of us for whom becoming a lineage holder is not a realistic possibility, we should be taking a look at how much we're personally supporting the wider community and creating the conditions for others to realize the master's teachings.

Rinpoche never treated us like children, he always tried to make his students take responsibility for themselves, but still many of us ended up relying on him as a sort of father figure, a decision maker who held things together. Now he's gone we're looking for another parent, the International Gakyil or someone else to step forward and say, "it's all going to be ok, this is what's happening". Personally I don't see the gakyil as having much more capacity to do that than any individual in the community. The time has really come to do what Rinpoche always encouraged us to do, and to take responsibility for ourselves. Without him here to magnetize people and money, perhaps we all need to be more generous with how we personally support the community, whether it's with time/money/skills. Without him here to make us feel like practitioners because we sit in front of a high master, perhaps we need to look at how much we are really embodying his teachings. To me it's a time to do, not to sit and hope/wait for announcements.

I don't mean that as an admonishment to everyone else. I, like everyone in the community, have been struggling with these questions. At times I've have had exactly the same thoughts as you guys have expressed above. This is just where my thinking has come to on the topic, and I'm sharing in case it's useful to anyone. It's as much an exhortation to myself as anything else.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:49 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:59 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:19 am

Yeah, but that's just one part of the equation. I'm not worried about individuals continuing to practice, but organizations need some kind of well...organization. It would be nice to know what the DC has planned for the future, especially with the implication that there would indeed be some sort of plan.
Agree. This is a practical issue about the propagation of the termas he held. Either there's someone who will continue to transmit them - or there isn't. And if there isn't, then we are the last generation that will practice them, which is very sad: and it's going to be increasingly hard to get people to engage with and fund the organization, because they will all be dying off and nobody will be receiving new teachings.
My take on that is basically, who knows...? There's no one right now. Will there be again in the future? Maybe. I hope so. But right now there's not, so there's not much to do other than to take responsibility for ourselves and get on with practicing what we're received.

There's lots of things that can be taught openly, and it seems the intention is that those open teachings are part of the way the community will continue to engage with the world at large. It will be a difficult time of course, and people will no doubt drift away, but those of us who care deeply about this transmission should try to support it.

There's only one way genuine lineages continue, some student of the master attains sufficient understanding, and more importantly realization, of their masters teachings, so they can continue to teach themselves. That's not the responsibility of the International Gakyil or any other board of people or organization, that's the responsibility of every individual student of Rinpoche's. We should be taking our own practice seriously, and perhaps for most of us for whom becoming a lineage holder is not a realistic possibility, we should be taking a look at how much we're personally supporting the wider community and creating the conditions for others to realize the master's teachings.

Rinpoche never treated us like children, he always tried to make his students take responsibility for themselves, but still many of us ended up relying on him as a sort of father figure, a decision maker who held things together. Now he's gone we're looking for another parent, the International Gakyil or someone else to step forward and say, "it's all going to be ok, this is what's happening". Personally I don't see the gakyil as having much more capacity to do that than any individual in the community. The time has really come to do what Rinpoche always encouraged us to do, and to take responsibility for ourselves. Without him here to magnetize people and money, perhaps we all need to be more generous with how we personally support the community, whether it's with time/money/skills. Without him here to make us feel like practitioners because we sit in front of a high master, perhaps we need to look at how much we are really embodying his teachings. To me it's a time to do, not to sit and hope/wait for announcements.

I don't mean that as an admonishment to everyone else. I, like everyone in the community, have been struggling with these questions. At times I've have had exactly the same thoughts as you guys have expressed above. This is just where my thinking has come to on the topic, and I'm sharing in case it's useful to anyone. It's as much an exhortation to myself as anything else.
This is all true, and on some levels it's indeed a good thing that they are starting to emphasize the unrestricted teachings on presence, etc. I've really liked the stuff up on the webcast page. It's a nice direction and I support it. If anything it's the kind of instruction I personally need the most...all good.

The thing is that Rinpoches way of doing things relied on direct introduction from him. I mean, that was everything.

Unless they decide to adopt the more "gradual" method of beginning with Shine with pointing out instruction, then we are still in a situation where no one can give the "main" practice because it relies on DI and making a connection with the master through this. Say nothing of the huge volume of ancillary stuff we were lucky enough to receive from him. Some of that stuff is barely ancillary too, Thun and Ganapuja for example.

I think some people are just a bit upset because following Rinpoches passing there was this stuff about being contemplative, responsible, etc. but now that the time has passed, there seems to be little transparency as to what is planned, if anything.

Perhaps nothing is planned and it will be figured out spontaneously, but it would be nice to know.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:16 am
This is all true, and on some levels it's indeed a good thing that they are starting to emphasize the unrestricted teachings on presence, etc. I've really liked the stuff up on the webcast page.

The thing is that Rinpoches way of doing things relied on direct introduction from him. I mean, that was everything.

Unless they decide to adopt the more "gradual" method of beginning with Shine with pointing out instruction, then we are still in a situation where no one can give the "main" practice because it relies on DI and making a connection with the master through this. Say nothing of the huge volume of ancillary stuff we were lucky enough to receive from him. Some of that stuff is barely ancillary too, Thun and Ganapuja for example.

I think some people are just a bit upset because following Rinpoches passing there was this stuff about being contemplative, responsible, etc. but now that the time has passed, there seems to be little transparency as to what is planned, if anything.

Perhaps nothing is planned and it will be figured out spontaneously, but it would be nice to know.
Well, yes and no. You still need someone to give the reading transmissions and explanations, even if that is as simple as giving the lung of a mantra. The question is - who is that? If there isn't someone, then by definition we're the last generation, and the practical value to everyone of remaining involved is a lot less.

Of course someone could claim that they have meet the conditions to give lungs or even direct introduction themselves. But if you have people giving transmission of practices without having had the prior instruction of their teacher to do so, that would be a problem for the legitimacy of the lineage.

I find it hard to believe that ChNNr passed away without having a plan for this. He was extremely thoughtful in developing the organization over the years: it would be extremely inconsistent that he didn't think about what happens after he's gone. But if there was a plan, I don't really understand why that plan hasn't been communicated. In any case, it would be nice to know whether there actually *was* a plan, or whether the organization just needs to figure this all out on their own.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sādhaka »

The months leading up to Rinpoche’s passing were very quiet. Even though I didn’t like it, I trust that he had a good ‘reason’ for this.

Now however that over a year has gone by since then, I have to admit I’m getting a little antsy about the future (so much for me ‘abiding’ in the Fourth Time).

Like I’d posted a couple pages or so back, Rinpoche advised us all to read his biography of his son Khyentse Yeshe’s (recognized as a sprul sku by the Sakya Trizin himself, by the way) previous Nirmāṇakāya; and, the little experience that I’ve had with him via live webcast, tells me that he is the real deal.

Then what’s the deal. Perhaps we just need to be a little more patient....
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Personally I don't even see what sort of plan could be expected that suddenly clarifies the situation. Rinpoche authorised his children to teach, but there's been no reason to expect them to take up the helm of the community just now. Maybe one or both will one day, but right now there's no indication of that. Other that that what is there to do? Who is there to be upset at? The IG are just people from the community like us, offering their time and effort. Several of them are new to their positions, having come in since Rinpoche passed. If there's no one to take up the position I'm not sure what they can be expected to do.

The direction and plan will work itself out over time no doubt, but I've never heard any indication publicly or privately that there's some secret bombshell to be dropped like a hidden dharma heir. People are absolutely carefully considering the future direction, but I don't think that there are significant decisions that have already been made, and are being held back for an extended period.

I'm sure we've all seen these already, but they're worth revisiting when these thoughts crop up. They give a good indication of the position and are very clear:
http://melong.com/continuation-dzogchen-teaching/
http://melong.com/opening-talks-by-stev ... l-meeting/
I'm not sure what else there is to say beyond that.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

well, guys, as was already said DC is large organization which depends on membership fees. If there will be no teacher, there will be no new members. If there will be no new members, there will be no funds. As I heard already some gars have big financial problems, like Dzamling gar...

To expect that someone will manifest "organicaly"...c´mon. I do sincerely believe someone can achieve high realization, or already achieved may be. But not to be authorized by Rinpoche, who will follow him? Who will create samaya with some strange guy?

Also we cant expect that DC will attract new people with public teachings like "how to be present" or khaita dance. To be honest, if khaita was there when I joined community I would have strong doubts about validity of whole thing. When HH Dalailama visited Prague last time I saw in fb live stream group of strange dressed guys to dance in front of HH this tibetan disco dance.
Also we have to admit, that if one want to have instruction on how to be present, there are much more elaborate system on this specific topic in theravada I think. Rinpoches main teachings are unique, also His style was unique and has great value for all of us. But to survive He need succesor. Cos although there are SMS instructors, who will attend their explanation of the same thing again and again? Even yantra yoga needs DI.

So my main point was about this doubts. In any case, if there are no plans, there is no future for DC and after our generation it will be all over, sadly. If there are plans I think we all deserve to know them so we can collect our energy and enthusiasm and collaborate in given direction. Just to "be patient and wait" sounds very nice but makes no sense.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:16 am
This is all true, and on some levels it's indeed a good thing that they are starting to emphasize the unrestricted teachings on presence, etc. I've really liked the stuff up on the webcast page.

The thing is that Rinpoches way of doing things relied on direct introduction from him. I mean, that was everything.

Unless they decide to adopt the more "gradual" method of beginning with Shine with pointing out instruction, then we are still in a situation where no one can give the "main" practice because it relies on DI and making a connection with the master through this. Say nothing of the huge volume of ancillary stuff we were lucky enough to receive from him. Some of that stuff is barely ancillary too, Thun and Ganapuja for example.

I think some people are just a bit upset because following Rinpoches passing there was this stuff about being contemplative, responsible, etc. but now that the time has passed, there seems to be little transparency as to what is planned, if anything.

Perhaps nothing is planned and it will be figured out spontaneously, but it would be nice to know.
Well, yes and no. You still need someone to give the reading transmissions and explanations, even if that is as simple as giving the lung of a mantra. The question is - who is that? If there isn't someone, then by definition we're the last generation, and the practical value to everyone of remaining involved is a lot less.

Of course someone could claim that they have meet the conditions to give lungs or even direct introduction themselves. But if you have people giving transmission of practices without having had the prior instruction of their teacher to do so, that would be a problem for the legitimacy of the lineage.

I find it hard to believe that ChNNr passed away without having a plan for this. He was extremely thoughtful in developing the organization over the years: it would be extremely inconsistent that he didn't think about what happens after he's gone. But if there was a plan, I don't really understand why that plan hasn't been communicated. In any case, it would be nice to know whether there actually *was* a plan, or whether the organization just needs to figure this all out on their own.
Pretty much how I feel about the whole thing.

One thing is, the DC had a clear structure, Rinpoche being its absolute and unquestionable centre (so much for continuing the way things used to be). With Rinpoche gone, the structure is no longer clear at all, nor is the issue of responsibility for the decision-making process. Who is running things now, and according to what directives?

Then there is the issue of communication. I have no clue as to who came up with the one-year-of-silent-contemplation thing, and I can only speculate why they did. It was a baffling move, and one which did not let people mourn their master, nor in any way helped them to come to terms with what happened. The least one could wish is that now, once the one-year-spell is over, we can address the situation properly -- but it is not happening. People -- us, the DC members -- need comforting, we need a sense of togetherness, and a feeling that there is a future for us together as the DC; we also need a lot patience and a lot of kindness to go through it; and we need to know what has been going on for more than a year now, and why it has been going on like that. (It feels as if I were explaining the very basics of how to deal with a death in the family to an alien).

It is exasperating because so many sanghas in the West (let alone the East) have been through it before. It is not as if people did not know what to do. And there is a lot of human suffering to take care of.
dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:59 amRinpoche authorised his children to teach, but there's been no reason to expect them to take up the helm of the community just now.
Actually, if they have been authorised, then there is every reason to expect them to take up the helm right now. The hour of need is now.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 am
Actually, if they have been authorised, then there is every reason to expect them to take up the helm right now. The hour of need is now.
none of them wants to teach...
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 am
Actually, if they have been authorised, then there is every reason to expect them to take up the helm right now. The hour of need is now.
none of them wants to teach...
Officially we do not know it at all.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:59 am
Actually, if they have been authorised, then there is every reason to expect them to take up the helm right now. The hour of need is now.
none of them wants to teach...
Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am

none of them wants to teach...
Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
Where are you getting that quote from?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:10 am

none of them wants to teach...
Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
I don't think so. I actually believe that the cancelling of schedule and a year of silence were the best gifts for the community. Because what has happened is that the community seems to be more practice oriented now and that is great. Also developing some basis has become a thing now. So I think the silent spot was important.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:26 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am

Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
Where are you getting that quote from?
its directly from rumors, brother! :namaste:
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