Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 am

To expect that someone will manifest "organicaly"...c´mon. I do sincerely believe someone can achieve high realization, or already achieved may be. But not to be authorized by Rinpoche, who will follow him? Who will create samaya with some strange guy?
Anyone who follows Rimpoches own advice should be able to follow some "random" guy since he constantly advice to not choose teachers accoeding to title, position, fame.

Not that is necessary a bad thing but we all know how it worked out in shambala to put someone in a throne.
Personally i have more confidence in meeting practitioners and seeing myself if i think they are capable of trassmiting the dzogchen principle or not. Thats how i ended up with all my teachers, including rimpoche.

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Miroku wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:49 am


Officially we do not know it at all.
Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
I don't think so. I actually believe that the cancelling of schedule and a year of silence were the best gifts for the community. Because what has happened is that the community seems to be more practice oriented now and that is great. Also developing some basis has become a thing now. So I think the silent spot was important.
Completle agree. The one year period really make me thing about the responsability of what we received and how practice, colaborating and not fighting with each other is really important

Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Simon E. »

Tata1 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:24 am
Miroku wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:40 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:09 am


Officially we dont know, but unofficially we know, that Yeshi "dont want to have anything to do with this tibetan folklore". Anyway, if they wanted to succed their father, they would be teaching already for some time when Rinpoche was canceling His schedule due to His condition. That was the right time for them to stand up.
I don't think so. I actually believe that the cancelling of schedule and a year of silence were the best gifts for the community. Because what has happened is that the community seems to be more practice oriented now and that is great. Also developing some basis has become a thing now. So I think the silent spot was important.
Completle agree. The one year period really make me thing about the responsability of what we received and how practice, colaborating and not fighting with each other is really important
This. It’s all too early. Stop letting the clock and calendar intrude. It’s a time for integration.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Tata1 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 am

To expect that someone will manifest "organicaly"...c´mon. I do sincerely believe someone can achieve high realization, or already achieved may be. But not to be authorized by Rinpoche, who will follow him? Who will create samaya with some strange guy?
Anyone who follows Rimpoches own advice should be able to follow some "random" guy since he constantly advice to not choose teachers accoeding to title, position, fame.

Not that is necessary a bad thing but we all know how it worked out in shambala to put someone in a throne.
Personally i have more confidence in meeting practitioners and seeing myself if i think they are capable of trassmiting the dzogchen principle or not. Thats how i ended up with all my teachers, including rimpoche.
Nope, one has to have clear lineage and also authorization. Othervice its dangerous to follow just "random guy".

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:39 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:45 am

To expect that someone will manifest "organicaly"...c´mon. I do sincerely believe someone can achieve high realization, or already achieved may be. But not to be authorized by Rinpoche, who will follow him? Who will create samaya with some strange guy?
Anyone who follows Rimpoches own advice should be able to follow some "random" guy since he constantly advice to not choose teachers accoeding to title, position, fame.

Not that is necessary a bad thing but we all know how it worked out in shambala to put someone in a throne.
Personally i have more confidence in meeting practitioners and seeing myself if i think they are capable of trassmiting the dzogchen principle or not. Thats how i ended up with all my teachers, including rimpoche.
Nope, one has to have clear lineage and also authorization. Othervice its dangerous to follow just "random guy".
All of rimpoches student have linage and permission is relative. For example Gampopa was told by mila that he was able to teach when he had unbearable devotion wich is not exactly some written or even oral permission.
For example we dont have a way to know if changchub dorje authorized rimpoche to teach except by faith in him. The same is true in other countless examples

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Tata1 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:36 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:39 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 am


Anyone who follows Rimpoches own advice should be able to follow some "random" guy since he constantly advice to not choose teachers accoeding to title, position, fame.

Not that is necessary a bad thing but we all know how it worked out in shambala to put someone in a throne.
Personally i have more confidence in meeting practitioners and seeing myself if i think they are capable of trassmiting the dzogchen principle or not. Thats how i ended up with all my teachers, including rimpoche.
Nope, one has to have clear lineage and also authorization. Othervice its dangerous to follow just "random guy".
All of rimpoches student have linage and permission is relative. For example Gampopa was told by mila that he was able to teach when he had unbearable devotion wich is not exactly some written or even oral permission.
For example we dont have a way to know if changchub dorje authorized rimpoche to teach except by faith in him. The same is true in other countless examples
Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa to teach, he didnt start by himself. He had a letter from Karmapa. All of Rinpoches student dont have his complete lineage, nor even SMS instructors. He didnt passed His complete Longsal to anybody, except perhaps this unknown china!nepal guy and His children. I personaly recieved "only" two elaborate wangs from Him thanks to SMS training and it wasnt part of His Longsal cycle.

florin
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

Receiving authorisation from Samantabhadra is probably the best.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

now I have to confess: In a state between sleep and wake up I had a vision of Samantabhadra who gave me full empowerment for all dzogchen teachinngs in the world. Yes, I was hiding till now, but since Gomadevi told me, that I have to stand up and tell people, Im doing it right now. So I hope you will accept me without any problems as new leader of IDC. Im not sure, its enough to write it like this to the IG, or should I adress it to Rosa? :shrug:

(this is irony, of course, but it seems to me that some people will be ok with statement like this to follow a new Rinpoche on scene)

florin
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:41 am
now I have to confess: In a state between sleep and wake up I had a vision of Samantabhadra who gave me full empowerment for all dzogchen teachinngs in the world. Yes, I was hiding till now, but since Gomadevi told me, that I have to stand up and tell people, Im doing it right now. So I hope you will accept me without any problems as new leader of IDC. Im not sure, its enough to write it like this to the IG, or should I adress it to Rosa? :shrug:

(this is irony, of course, but it seems to me that some people will be ok with statement like this to follow a new Rinpoche on scene)
Jim Valby when was asked who gave rinpoche permission to teach his response was "my guess is Samantabhadra".
So i think you have been following this exact Rinpoche.
But in my post above i didnt mean Samantabhadra as a being. If you understand what Samantabhdra is, you understand my post.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:00 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:41 am
now I have to confess: In a state between sleep and wake up I had a vision of Samantabhadra who gave me full empowerment for all dzogchen teachinngs in the world. Yes, I was hiding till now, but since Gomadevi told me, that I have to stand up and tell people, Im doing it right now. So I hope you will accept me without any problems as new leader of IDC. Im not sure, its enough to write it like this to the IG, or should I adress it to Rosa? :shrug:

(this is irony, of course, but it seems to me that some people will be ok with statement like this to follow a new Rinpoche on scene)
Jim Valby when was asked who gave rinpoche permission to teach his response was "my guess is Samantabhadra".
So i think you have been following this exact Rinpoche.
But in my post above i didnt mean Samantabhadra as a being. If you understand what Samantabhdra is, you understand my post.
as I wrote also before, Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa, right?
anyway, how are you going to check qualification of someone who recieved this "Samantabhadra permission" to teach? just as an example, lets say, its me and Im convinced that I really had this experience of encouter Dharmakaya as my own innate nature and presence.

florin
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:10 am
florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:00 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:41 am
now I have to confess: In a state between sleep and wake up I had a vision of Samantabhadra who gave me full empowerment for all dzogchen teachinngs in the world. Yes, I was hiding till now, but since Gomadevi told me, that I have to stand up and tell people, Im doing it right now. So I hope you will accept me without any problems as new leader of IDC. Im not sure, its enough to write it like this to the IG, or should I adress it to Rosa? :shrug:

(this is irony, of course, but it seems to me that some people will be ok with statement like this to follow a new Rinpoche on scene)
Jim Valby when was asked who gave rinpoche permission to teach his response was "my guess is Samantabhadra".
So i think you have been following this exact Rinpoche.
But in my post above i didnt mean Samantabhadra as a being. If you understand what Samantabhdra is, you understand my post.
as I wrote also before, Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa, right?
anyway, how are you going to check qualification of someone who recieved this "Samantabhadra permission" to teach? just as an example, lets say, its me and Im convinced that I really had this experience of encouter Dharmakaya as my own innate nature and presence.

As an example consider all the practitioners across the centuries who went into retreat for many years and while in retreat their teacher died. They continued to practice afterwards and after some years achieved stable realization. People heard and requested they would teach. They started teaching. Apart from their realization which is the highest credential nobody gave them any authorisation. No human's authorisation is higher than the validation of your own realisation as identical to that of Samantabhadra.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:21 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:10 am
florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:00 am


Jim Valby when was asked who gave rinpoche permission to teach his response was "my guess is Samantabhadra".
So i think you have been following this exact Rinpoche.
But in my post above i didnt mean Samantabhadra as a being. If you understand what Samantabhdra is, you understand my post.
as I wrote also before, Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa, right?
anyway, how are you going to check qualification of someone who recieved this "Samantabhadra permission" to teach? just as an example, lets say, its me and Im convinced that I really had this experience of encouter Dharmakaya as my own innate nature and presence.

As an example consider all the practitioners across the centuries who went into retreat for many years and while in retreat their teacher died. They continued to practice afterwards and after some years achieved stable realization. People heard and requested they would teach. They started teaching. Apart from their realization which is the highest credential nobody gave them any authorisation. No human's authorisation is higher than the validation of your own realisation as identical to that of Samantabhadra.
:bow:

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:21 am
As an example consider all the practitioners across the centuries who went into retreat for many years and while in retreat their teacher died. They continued to practice afterwards and after some years achieved stable realization. People heard and requested they would teach. They started teaching. Apart from their realization which is the highest credential nobody gave them any authorisation. No human's authorisation is higher than the validation of your own realisation as identical to that of Samantabhadra.
While I get your point and it definetly is valid, I would argue that in modern society it is bit better to also have some lineage to back up these claims. It is one of the important signs of somebody who is at least a bit legit. Not the only one, as realization is also important (however it can be hard for us normal people to perceive it), but a very important one. And in the context of IDC I would be especially careful as it would be a shame if one such claim destroyed and ripped apart the community. I mean even I had a weird dream where I claimed to be a tulku. :lol:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

Simon E.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Simon E. »

florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:21 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:10 am
florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:00 am


Jim Valby when was asked who gave rinpoche permission to teach his response was "my guess is Samantabhadra".
So i think you have been following this exact Rinpoche.
But in my post above i didnt mean Samantabhadra as a being. If you understand what Samantabhdra is, you understand my post.
as I wrote also before, Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa, right?
anyway, how are you going to check qualification of someone who recieved this "Samantabhadra permission" to teach? just as an example, lets say, its me and Im convinced that I really had this experience of encouter Dharmakaya as my own innate nature and presence.

As an example consider all the practitioners across the centuries who went into retreat for many years and while in retreat their teacher died. They continued to practice afterwards and after some years achieved stable realization. People heard and requested they would teach. They started teaching. Apart from their realization which is the highest credential nobody gave them any authorisation. No human's authorisation is higher than the validation of your own realisation as identical to that of Samantabhadra.
The empowerment that comes to us from the lineage is not an example of human authority. It is the complete opposite and is essential for authentic Vajrayana. There are no exceptions. No ifs or buts.
There is however a good deal of self deception around these issues.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

florin
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by florin »

Miroku wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:03 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:21 am
As an example consider all the practitioners across the centuries who went into retreat for many years and while in retreat their teacher died. They continued to practice afterwards and after some years achieved stable realization. People heard and requested they would teach. They started teaching. Apart from their realization which is the highest credential nobody gave them any authorisation. No human's authorisation is higher than the validation of your own realisation as identical to that of Samantabhadra.
While I get your point and it definetly is valid, I would argue that in modern society it is bit better to also have some lineage to back up these claims. It is one of the important signs of somebody who is at least a bit legit. Not the only one, as realization is also important (however it can be hard for us normal people to perceive it), but a very important one. And in the context of IDC I would be especially careful as it would be a shame if one such claim destroyed and ripped apart the community. I mean even I had a weird dream where I claimed to be a tulku. :lol:
Nobody said that people need to claim anything.
From what I remember rinpoche before he started teaching he had multiple requests from people or lamas but he always turned them down( including that of Karmapa). But upon reflection he decided that it is what he needs to do.
I would be suspicious of anybody making claims of any kind when it comes to realisation.
Is just a guess but i think that people who have realisation and start teaching they only do it as long as there are various indications/signs combined with real life circumstances that are pushing towards such an activity.

People in my example didn’t live in a vacuum. They were well known to people living in the area and everyone knew they had lineage and who their teachers were. So is not like one day they achieved realisation but nobody knew who they were and everybody just accepted them. Although you are a yogi, a retreatant for many years, your life is still intertwined with that of the locals.

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Vasana
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Vasana »

The examples above may be true in terms of being able to teach in general and possibly even some variety of non-elaborate pointing out instruction but this is not the same as being able to confer empowerment for a practice, or cycle of teaching. Longsal in this case. As someone already highlighted a few posts ago.
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Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
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Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:27 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:36 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:39 pm


Nope, one has to have clear lineage and also authorization. Othervice its dangerous to follow just "random guy".
All of rimpoches student have linage and permission is relative. For example Gampopa was told by mila that he was able to teach when he had unbearable devotion wich is not exactly some written or even oral permission.
For example we dont have a way to know if changchub dorje authorized rimpoche to teach except by faith in him. The same is true in other countless examples
Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa to teach, he didnt start by himself. He had a letter from Karmapa. All of Rinpoches student dont have his complete lineage, nor even SMS instructors. He didnt passed His complete Longsal to anybody, except perhaps this unknown china!nepal guy and His children. I personaly recieved "only" two elaborate wangs from Him thanks to SMS training and it wasnt part of His Longsal cycle.
Have you read the karmapas letter? Have you heard the karmapa say it? As much as i find a lot of inspiration in the karmapa asking rimpoche to teach it still based in faith since i was not even born when the 16th Karmapa was around. The confirmation for me and what makes me choose one teacher over the other eventually is his or her ability to mature me as a student.

Having linage does not mean having the complete teachings of rimpoche. Some of rimpoches students may (or may not) be able to comunicate the dzogchen principle without ever even metioning longsal. If you have realization you can comunicate if you dont you cant. There is not much more than that

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Just to be clear there are two different things here.

Rimpoches sudents being able to teach Dzogchen is not the same as putting someone as the head of the dzogchen comunity. These are two different issues

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Tata1 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:25 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:27 pm
Tata1 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:36 pm


All of rimpoches student have linage and permission is relative. For example Gampopa was told by mila that he was able to teach when he had unbearable devotion wich is not exactly some written or even oral permission.
For example we dont have a way to know if changchub dorje authorized rimpoche to teach except by faith in him. The same is true in other countless examples
Rinpoche was asked by Karmapa to teach, he didnt start by himself. He had a letter from Karmapa. All of Rinpoches student dont have his complete lineage, nor even SMS instructors. He didnt passed His complete Longsal to anybody, except perhaps this unknown china!nepal guy and His children. I personaly recieved "only" two elaborate wangs from Him thanks to SMS training and it wasnt part of His Longsal cycle.
Have you read the karmapas letter? Have you heard the karmapa say it? As much as i find a lot of inspiration in the karmapa asking rimpoche to teach it still based in faith since i was not even born when the 16th Karmapa was around. The confirmation for me and what makes me choose one teacher over the other eventually is his or her ability to mature me as a student.

Having linage does not mean having the complete teachings of rimpoche. Some of rimpoches students may (or may not) be able to comunicate the dzogchen principle without ever even metioning longsal. If you have realization you can comunicate if you dont you cant. There is not much more than that
Im sorry, but this is pretty naive view. What we are talking here is future of IDC and Rinpoches transmission. If you want to follow a dzogchen teacher, there are plenty around who can really help you with the practice, but this is not continuation of Rinpoches teachings in any way. His teachings are very specific, and yes its called Longsal.

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Tata1 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:25 pm
Having linage does not mean having the complete teachings of rimpoche.
Having lineage means exactly to have complete teachings of Rinpoche. edit: *to be lineage holder you need complete lineage.

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