termas found outside of asia?

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:21 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:49 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:02 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:06 pm
Tertons can make mistakes and majorly screw up. In fact, there are many stories of Tertons making mistakes, large and small. Viz. Pema Le-dre-tsal. So recognizing someone as a valid Terton and then later also recognizing they had gone off the rails doesn't seem contradictory to me.
Yes, it is true.

However, it's also hard to discern what is a mistake, and what is a display, or what 'mistake' is due to the collective lack of merit of sentient beings.

I'm quite sure with an ordinary lens the Mahasiddha's would all appear to be mistaken, Virupa stopping the sun from setting to not pay a bar tab?

If someone is an authentic Terton, despite the perceived 'mistakes' that they have made, I think that alone is still very much worthy of respect.

By and large almost all of Tertons are emanations of Guru Rinpoche himself.

The 25 disciples were all emanations of Guru Rinpoche, Mind body speech quality and activity tulkus, break down into 25, mind of mind, mind of speech, mind of body, ETC

These are things which are quite hard to conceive of, and are we not always told that Nirmanakaya's display in 'inconceivable variety" in their benefit of sentient beings? emanating in both pure and impure forms for the host of beings.

I know the Tulku phenomena does make people feel strange, and it can seem like some kind of a white-wash for people. However, I am sure you also have faith in the idea of Nirmanakaya Trul ku's, and yes, there are different levels of Tulkus, not everyone who bears the name is authentic what-so-ever and not everyone who bears the name is actually an emanation. Some are born due to merit and aspiration prayers, and others are "blessed" tulkus blessed by the predecessor to fulfill the activities. Not everyone shares the Sem, mind so to speak.

However, as hard as it can be to accept, how tradition does teach is the following. I have been taught by one of the 16th karmapa's heart son's that in their tradition it is accepted that an actual Nirmanakaya does know the nature of reality ever since birth, and that true nirmanakaya's actually cannot act from selfish concern because they do not have a self so to speak of.

I have also asked a Khenpo from Ka-nying shedrup ling about this, who did reiterate yes, if they are really are a nirmanakaya then Yes, that is the case. As I have said, many people who have the name of Tulku are not what is discussed as an emanation of a Buddha, but if they are an emanation of a Buddha, then it is the case. Tertons used to be a bit more forward about this, Just look at Kunzang Dechen Lingpa's bio where he said a red heart beam shot from Guru rinpoche's heart and shone to Lhodrak where he was born.

The Khenpo's reply was such "considering omniscience is considered to be a quality of a Buddha, to what degree does an authentic emanation Trul ku, of a buddha have omniscience once they are reborn as a human, can it be temporarily veiled?

The emanation body (Nirmanakaya) of a Buddha is always endowed with omniscience, in the same way as it is the case with the enjoyment body (Sambhogakaya) and the reality body (Dharmakaya). This is because the three kayas are in essence the same. They only appear as different conceptual isolates to different types of beings. The Nirmanakaya appears to impure beings, the Sambhogakaya to slightly pure beings (= that means an area), and the Dharmakaya is the domain of the direct perception of a Buddha.
We should add that a Buddha's Nirmanakaya, Tib.: Tul ku སྤྲུལ་སྐུ།, is not the same as 'Tulku' is often used nowadays.

However, like I said this gets complicated because ... even with those who have the name of eminent teachers, some are 'blessed' as a tulku or in other words a minor tulku, and not actually sharing the Sem, or consciousness of their predecessor.

However, we can see many examples of those who do actually share the consciousness of their predecessors. Take for instance Terchen Barway Dorje who was an emanation of both Nupchen Sangye Yeshe and Yeshe tshogyal, the two were childhood friends and he could remember them playing together from either perspective.

As a long time student, what is your understanding of an emanated being, as opposed to a blessed tulku or a tulku based on their merits and aspirations. What is your understanding of how the Nirmakaya emanates to benefit sentient beings, and if, or at all the display of the nirmanakaya can become obscured, and fall victim to circumstances of their life.

At the end of the day though, having entered the Mandala of secret mantra, I would always encourage a student to have a pure perception of their teacher.

As far as CTR and his mistakes or lack thereof, I really cannot comment on that, however I can only note the high number of eminent teachers who have praised him, including some, who I do consider to be Living Buddha's.

Some people these days may be prone to think that all of this, Mind, body, speech, talk is non-sense, and due to obvious corruptions (nepotism for example) that the Tulku system may just be a construct, and Tibetan culture.

However, it's not really true. There is an actual way that enlightened beings emanate, and these distinctions of Body, speech, mind, and so forth, do have meaning.

For example; after a master of that calibre passes away, they arise as their yidam deity, and then with their wisdom they know the exact circumstances of taking birth. The family, the environment, and what would be ideal. Depending on this they dispatch different emanations, for example, they send their consciousness in the form of an OM into the womb of their prospective mother if they want to be a body emanation, an Ah for a speech emanation, a Hung for a mind emanation and so forth.

These are also not trivial titles, they have correspondence. Body emanations tend to have very impressive forms, and hook those through their appearance, speech emanations tend to excel in expounding the dharma, Mind emanations tend to be very wrathful with a high degree of realization from a young age and so forth, and then there are of course those that are emanations of different teachers in all 5 degrees.

I know these kind of conversations can seem a bit overwhelming, (not saying they are to you) but it's important for us all not to be lazy about this, and merely dismiss these things as mere culture. The above explanations can be found in Karma Chakme's mountain dharma.

Anyone is more than welcome to explain their own understanding of these phenomena, especially based on what they have heard from their teachers or studied.

& for those thinking it was something invented at a later date it's not, Erik Pema kunsang said that there were instances of Guru Rinpoche recognizing students as the rebirth of Indian mahasiddha's and installing them at Samye gompa. He may have said this is found in the Pema Kathang but I can't recall.

It's generally considered unless emanations reflect our own human limitations to some degrees, they are not able to efficiently guide us in the same way.
You say: "The 25 disciples were all emanations of Guru Rinpoche, Mind body speech quality and activity tulkus, break down into 25, mind of mind, mind of speech, mind of body, ETC"

Then you say "I know the Tulku phenomena does make people feel strange, and it can seem like some kind of a white-wash for people. However, I am sure you also have faith in the idea of Nirmanakaya Trul ku's, and yes, there are different levels of Tulkus, not everyone who bears the name is authentic what-so-ever and not everyone who bears the name is actually an emanation. Some are born due to merit and aspiration prayers, and others are "blessed" tulkus blessed by the predecessor to fulfill the activities. Not everyone shares the Sem, mind so to speak."

Personally I have no idea.

However, one Rinpoche told me all the tertons are actually blessed mindstreams. They're usually ordinary beings, however, some have gained realization in certain lifetimes like Dudjom Lingpa, but the majority have not. Some have no realization at all and just simply have blessed mindstreams. I'm not sure he really believes the idea that they are emanations of the Indian Mahasiddhas, but I'd have to ask him.

Another Rinpoche told me that even the Dalai Lama had to regain his realization in this lifetime, that's why he was controlled by the political players at the beginning of his life until after his escape from Tibet.

Another Rinpoche told me that even though he remembers the bardo and being in the womb, as well as important events from past lives, he still didnt recognize his own realization until it was pointed out to him again by his teacher, at which point he received the full mind transmission.
Yes and I think that is part of the interesting point that i'm trying to open up with this conversation. Innate qualities and consequences of training/environment, their interplay, display and so forth.

As far as the first point I will provide a quote here from Lama Tashi tobgyal who is a retreat master from Raktrul gompa and practices in the Bardor tersar lineage,

"With regard to Guru Rinpoche himself we have to remember that Guru Rinpoche was, in a sense, even kinder, even more beneficial to Tibet, than Buddha Shakyamuni. Really, there is no difference between Buddha Shakyamuni and Guru Rinpoche. Guru Rinpoche was the direct emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni. But the difference is, for Tibetans, that Buddha Shakyamuni never visited Tibet, never brought the teachings there; Guru Rinpoche did. So all Tibetan Buddhism really owes its existence to the kindness of Guru Rinpoche and the Kashmiri abbot Shantarakshita.

Especially, Guru Rinpoche insured that he would, and has, produced a ceaseless stream of emanations. For example, his best known disciples, the twenty-five disciples, were each his own emanation to begin with: five emanations of his body, five of speech, five of mind, five of qualities, five of activity. And, each of the five [had five emanations] — body [of] body, body [of] speech, body [of] mind, etc. He gave each of them a different set of instructions, predicted their time of rebirth, who their disciples would be, entrusted their particular teachings to particular dharmapalas or protectors, and prophesied those future events that would indicate the time had come to revive their teachings. He provided the specific teachings that would serve as remedies for those particular events or situations and then concealed all of this — the teachings themselves, the prophesies, and the entrustment — as treasure or terma, so that they would survive until the time came for those future emanations to take birth.

These terma teachings are therefore very different from most dharma. They are not the clever compositions of brilliant scholars. In fact, the tertons, the treasure revealers who had discovered them, have in many cases been utterly illiterate, or functionally illiterate, or is some cases merely poorly educated. Yet they were able through receiving, finding the physical texts, and through their visions, to transcribe sometimes ten or even a hundred volumes of teachings."

another quote
"Tertons are always challenging to people because they often act unconventionally. And it’s natural, or not surprising, that during the life of a terton people usually think they’re crazy. (After they pass away, of course, we all make statues of them and worship them and so on.) Or they say, “Well, this is just too much — too many revelations, too many discoveries; this is not possible.” Actually if you learn what they’re really doing and what’s going on, you start to understand that they are emanations of Guru Rinpoche. They seem like ordinary men and women when you meet them, but they’re doing things that are simply beyond our usually experience. For example, they might lapse into a nap for a few minutes and you think, “Well, what is that? He was asleep for two, three minutes.” But as in the case of Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa, since dream time can be very different from waking time, he was able to get detailed instruction on feast dance from Guru Rinpoche and a retinue of dakinis in what for us probably would just look like somebody slumping for a few minutes and coming back out of it. And that’s what they’re doing. They’re doing things like this all the time. And it’s not surprising that we don’t recognize because we don’t it."

As to your second point, I think that the training and practice of tulku's does play a role, however, I also don't think relating to that as a display which is really what the word Tulku, Trul'pai ku, emanation body, or magical display connotes. A display in the water of the collective merit or lack of merit of sentient beings, I don't really see these as contradictory.

It is interesting to note though, that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche said somewhere in blazing splendor that even the Karmapa, despite being who he is, does require pointing out instruction again in this life. There was some debate around it.

Then as far as causes and conditions go, I think it's worthy to discuss the role that students broken samaya's may play in effecting the teacher. That is why the 16th said that when people ask him to find a reincarnation of their teacher, it comes clearly in his mind, however if the students of that teacher has broken samaya with him, it's as though the vision is covered in mist.

It is said when a teacher reveals a Gong ter for example, their mind is completely indivisible from Guru Rinpoche.

as Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche points out though, as far a Terton reading the Dakini script, this is something only a Terton can do, a Terton who has the karmic connection with that Terma. He said he does not believe even highly accomplished and learned masters like Sakya pandita, tsongkhapa and so forth could read Dakini script. This can be found in his book Straight talk.

There are Tertons who know about the location of other earth terma, but they know that they are not the ones with the karmic connection to reveal and transcribe them, and so, they leave them be.

When Khenpo Jigme Phuntsog rinpoche visited pharping he remarked that the entire rock surrounding the Asura cave was filled with Terma.

& also we have to discuss auspicious circumstance, it has been mentioned here about a women asking Dudjom Rinpoche for a Tara sadhana, at the right time and place which was the auspicious circumstance for him revealing a Gong ter on Green Tara.

Similarly, when someone had given a Yellow terma parchment to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and asked if he could decipher it, he had to soak it in water (with mendrup) and do repeated puja's until the Dakini script could show (to him).. Yellow parchment is unlike ordinary paper as it does not fall apart in water. Someone offered him 40 pages to write the Terma down, and the terma stopped exactly on the 40th page. HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche mentioned that there was a short medium and long version, and the paper provided for the medium one. Again, auspicious circumstance. This can be found in his Bio Brilliant moon.

However, it has been mentioned that Terma can also become damaged to to speak, as they have been there for a long time. So there are still some physical properties that seem connected to cause and conditions. Yet, the connection is still profound.

When Terchen Barway Dorje found some scrolls which were inside a casket their contents had been damaged, He had been drinking and ordered the scrolls to be burned in a fire, to which his students just thought he was buzzed. However, when the smoke from the parchment drifted up his nostrils the entire contents of the Ter' revealed in his mind. Tertons are simply incredible beings, to which we can never fit within the confines of our concepts. Check out the Book Blazing splendor for this story.

Things get complicated even more, because there is the phenomena of Terma thief, beings that may have at the time of Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe tshogyal been birds, and so forth, that saw the Terma being put away, and are subsequently born as beings who know where it is and want to take it.

One also cannot simply take Earth terma out like a withdraw from the bank, as they are guarded by Terdak, terma guardians. That is why Tertons put back some offerings into the space from which they take, and after patching up the wall, it returns to solid stone, there are evidence of such places, such as where Chokgyur lingpa did this in Kham.

It's no wonder with all of these fantastic tales about Terma though that people are skeptical, and that is why revealing Terma openly witnessed by all used to be a thing that happened. Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche remarks that earth terma can be so hot, they they cannot be handled by people directly when they are produced, and even scorch the brocade they are placed upon.

& of course, there have been fake tertons too, and even today there are quite a few, particularly in eastern Tibet. It takes a being with a very High realization to confirm Terma, The Karmapa's used to do this, and also Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo used to have this place.

These days, I am sure Terma are still being revealed, as some have even mentioned in this thread, but who will validate it? and would everyone accept the validation? in these dregs of time where many people lack devotion.

However, Terma are not ordinary words and constructs, and no matter how learned somebody was they could not construct a Terma. Terma's have particular qualities and validations, Tulku Thondup has a whole book about this.

I think it's an important conversation to be had in these times of doubts, where some may question the Terma tradition, as people these days are even questioning the existence of some lineage masters of the past all together.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

TrimePema
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by TrimePema » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:43 pm

:good:

I think samaya definitely plays a part in it.

I love this story about CTR - goes something like this:

There was a party in a ballroom with huge windows and the curtains had all been drawn shut while the students were drinking, partying, whatever. There was a lot of intoxicants and everyone was pretty wasted. At some point, one student noticed Rinpoche was not there. "Where's Rinpoche!?" he asked, but nobody knew where Rinpoche was and apparently not everybody cared.

This student then went searching for Rinpoche but couldn't find him anywhere, so he gave up and went back to the party. He noticed it was a little strange for the curtains to be drawn shut at night time so he peeked behind them and to his surprise he found Rinpoche - naked and drinking a bottle of liquor. Rinpoche looked at him and whispered "don't tell them where I am".

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:01 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:43 pm
:good:

I think samaya definitely plays a part in it.

I love this story about CTR - goes something like this:

There was a party in a ballroom with huge windows and the curtains had all been drawn shut while the students were drinking, partying, whatever. There was a lot of intoxicants and everyone was pretty wasted. At some point, one student noticed Rinpoche was not there. "Where's Rinpoche!?" he asked, but nobody knew where Rinpoche was and apparently not everybody cared.

This student then went searching for Rinpoche but couldn't find him anywhere, so he gave up and went back to the party. He noticed it was a little strange for the curtains to be drawn shut at night time so he peeked behind them and to his surprise he found Rinpoche - naked and drinking a bottle of liquor. Rinpoche looked at him and whispered "don't tell them where I am".
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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tobes
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by tobes » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:56 pm

I think Trungpa's point would be something like: we get a little too intoxicated/fixated with the play of sambogakaya. We desperately want magic, evidence of siddhis, all manner of exotic manifestations. And that yes, this does in fact happen, but to reify it is to deeply miss the point.The simplicity of being uncontrived is actually far more profound.

Personally, I am guilty of almost constant reification, so it's a good message for me.

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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by PeterC » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:46 am

There's always a risk in these discussions that we end up going down the Trungpa hole yet again. Simon has previously discussed at length the question of Trungpa's ability as a teacher vs. his conduct, and frankly I think it's for actual students of the man to resolve this question as they see fit, and not for anyone else to try to tell them how to resolve it.

It's easy to forget that the tulku and treasure traditions are nowhere attested to in the sutras or tantras. Yes, there were reincarnations in India. But the systems themselves, with all their internal rules and practices, are entirely Tibetan creations. Of course all tantra is by definition revealed teachings, and there have historically been extensive debates over the authenticity of specific tantras from India, so it would be inconsistent to accept the validity of tantra in general but object to terma on some other grounds. But let's start by accepting that the sutras and tantras don't help us very much in this discussion.

If we want to practice terma, which I personally do, then we should practice within the rules of that tradition. However nothing obliges any particular practitioner to have an opinion on the authenticity of any particular terton or terma - how could they, really, there are so many, and many of them have been historically contentious to some degree. Even the two most famous recent lineages - Dudjom Lingpa's and Chokgyur Lingpa's - were both subject to a lot of skepticism during the lives of those tertons. If you ask me to have an opinion about a terma lineage I don't practice, I would have to rely on the opinion of someone who relied on someone else's opinion - and in the words of the great Gendun Choepel, "it is a tiger who vouches for a lion, it is a yak who vouches for a tiger ... thus an insect is made the final voucher for them all". Not that great contemporary masters are in any way insects. But the 'chain of authority' ultimately leads nowhere. The only reliable thing that we have is our experience and our confidence in the person before whose feet we choose to sit. Beyond that, why should I particularly care what anyone says about the validity or not of any practice I choose to do? How individuals choose to arrive at that point - or whether they choose not to - is entirely up to them. But there's no authoritative rulebook that gets you there.

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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 am

:good:

I would just add that there is an inbuilt assumption in some of the previous posts that if one holds the view of the Guru as being the Buddha then their conduct is beyond criticism.
I don’t accept that at all. Guru as Buddha is a powerful upaya. But an upaya is what it is. Not an absolute truth.
I actually have no problem in holding CTR as a pure channel of Buddhadharma AND as a dodgy bloke I increasingly wanted nothing to do with. There is no contradiction there at all. No dissonance. But it took a long time and much heart searching to reach that position.
Something I imagine that Sogyal’s students and Mukpo’s students are grappling with as we speak. And I feel for them.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:56 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:46 am

It's easy to forget that the tulku and treasure traditions are nowhere attested to in the sutras or tantras. Yes, there were reincarnations in India. But the systems themselves, with all their internal rules and practices, are entirely Tibetan creations. Of course all tantra is by definition revealed teachings, and there have historically been extensive debates over the authenticity of specific tantras from India, so it would be inconsistent to accept the validity of tantra in general but object to terma on some other grounds. But let's start by accepting that the sutras and tantras don't help us very much in this discussion.
Guru Rinpoche was not a Tibetan :smile:

& I certainly hope you are not claiming that the Terma tradition is an entirely Tibetan creation

as this would be offensive to many Bhutanese, Nepalese, and so forth ..

According to Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro there was also Terma outside of Vajrayana


"In the Nyingma Tradition, there is the lineage known as Terma (Treasure), which comes from the great Master of Uddiyana, Padmasambhava, who, after coming to Tibet, manifested all the many common and uncommon Dharma teachings for the King (Trisong Deutson) and his followers. They then gathered these together in order to protect and preserve the Dharma for the sentient beings of future degenerate times, and conceal them as mind and earth treasures. At appropriate times as a source of benefit and happiness for sentient beings and the Dharma.

There are also many renowned Lineages of Pure Visions and of 'Ear Whispered Transmissions' existing in both 'new' and 'old' Secret Tantras.

Some scholars have questioned the validity of these Holy Treasures, but they need to examine the purpose and necessity of Terma. That these Treasures are the authentic Dharma is established by the three standard criteria of logical argument. So please be careful, because criticizing the Dharma with anger is a grave fault and will only cause your defilements to increase, becoming thick and heavy.

The "One Hundred Thousand Verses of the Prajnaparamita Sutra" etc. were Treasures revealed by Nagarjuna. Furthermore, many great Saints discovered and revealed Treasures of Sacred Writings of the Secret Tantra from the Stupa of Dhumathala in Uddiyana. And so, even in the Noble Land of India, we find Treasure revelations (Terma) occurring. There are many logical arguments concerning this, but I shall not present them here." extracted from Opening the Dharma, A brief explanation of the essence of the limitless vehicles of the Buddha
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:17 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:56 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:46 am

It's easy to forget that the tulku and treasure traditions are nowhere attested to in the sutras or tantras. Yes, there were reincarnations in India. But the systems themselves, with all their internal rules and practices, are entirely Tibetan creations. Of course all tantra is by definition revealed teachings, and there have historically been extensive debates over the authenticity of specific tantras from India, so it would be inconsistent to accept the validity of tantra in general but object to terma on some other grounds. But let's start by accepting that the sutras and tantras don't help us very much in this discussion.
Guru Rinpoche was not a Tibetan :smile:

& I certainly hope you are not claiming that the Terma tradition is an entirely Tibetan creation

as this would be offensive to many Bhutanese, Nepalese, and so forth ..
You know what I mean. It was a system that arose post the transmission of the Dharma from India to Tibet. GR taught the 25 disciples and built Samye in Tibet.

According to Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro there was also Terma outside of Vajrayana
Appeal to authority. See my point about the chain of authority leading nowhere. You never met JKCL. You have confidence in him because your teachers had confidence in their teachers who had confidence in him. See what I mean? It all depends on you having confidence in the person who taught you. You are in fact demonstrating my point.

"In the Nyingma Tradition, there is the lineage known as Terma (Treasure), which comes from the great Master of Uddiyana, Padmasambhava, who, after coming to Tibet, manifested all the many common and uncommon Dharma teachings for the King (Trisong Deutson) and his followers. They then gathered these together in order to protect and preserve the Dharma for the sentient beings of future degenerate times, and conceal them as mind and earth treasures. At appropriate times as a source of benefit and happiness for sentient beings and the Dharma.
I’m aware of what terma is, thanks

There are also many renowned Lineages of Pure Visions and of 'Ear Whispered Transmissions' existing in both 'new' and 'old' Secret Tantras.

Some scholars have questioned the validity of these Holy Treasures, but they need to examine the purpose and necessity of Terma. That these Treasures are the authentic Dharma is established by the three standard criteria of logical argument. So please be careful, because criticizing the Dharma with anger is a grave fault and will only cause your defilements to increase, becoming thick and heavy.
Where did I say terma was not valid Dharma. I quite literally said that one can’t logically accept tantra and reject terma as a concept as both are revealed teaching. Did you even read my post before disagreeing to it?

The "One Hundred Thousand Verses of the Prajnaparamita Sutra" etc. were Treasures revealed by Nagarjuna. Furthermore, many great Saints discovered and revealed Treasures of Sacred Writings of the Secret Tantra from the Stupa of Dhumathala in Uddiyana. And so, even in the Noble Land of India, we find Treasure revelations (Terma) occurring. There are many logical arguments concerning this, but I shall not present them here." extracted from Opening the Dharma, A brief explanation of the essence of the limitless vehicles of the Buddha
Not the same. He recovered them from nagas. He didn’t write a note for the guardian, plunge his hand into a rock etc. My point, which you seem to be completely ignoring, is that the system of revelation for terma, along with all its practices and customs, is something that arose after the Dharma left India. That’s not in dispute.

Look, your point seems to be to assert strict orthodoxy of belief over and over again. If so, good for you, but you seem to have missed the point of the discussion entirely. Neither I nor Simon are denying the validity of terma. We are just accepting that there isn’t *proof* of it’s validity beyond experience. That ought to be a completely uncontroversial statement.

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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:44 am

PeterC wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:17 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:56 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:46 am

It's easy to forget that the tulku and treasure traditions are nowhere attested to in the sutras or tantras. Yes, there were reincarnations in India. But the systems themselves, with all their internal rules and practices, are entirely Tibetan creations. Of course all tantra is by definition revealed teachings, and there have historically been extensive debates over the authenticity of specific tantras from India, so it would be inconsistent to accept the validity of tantra in general but object to terma on some other grounds. But let's start by accepting that the sutras and tantras don't help us very much in this discussion.
Guru Rinpoche was not a Tibetan :smile:

& I certainly hope you are not claiming that the Terma tradition is an entirely Tibetan creation

as this would be offensive to many Bhutanese, Nepalese, and so forth ..
You know what I mean. It was a system that arose post the transmission of the Dharma from India to Tibet. GR taught the 25 disciples and built Samye in Tibet.
Yes, I do believe I know what 'entirely Tibetan' means, however as I am demonstrating to you, that is a fallacy. You are focused merely on the Tibetan side of things, which is understandable since it was a larger country, and many of the teachers have been Tibetans themselves. However, it is important to know that Guru Rinpoche is 'not' a Tibetan, he is from Uddiyana. The people of Nepal, Bhutan, and so forth have their own important histories of Guru Rinpoche visiting and blessing their country which are also valid and worthy of respect. There are also Tertons who have not been Tibetan, such as Pema Lingpa, who is always born within Bhutan. Yes people often focus on Guru Rinpoche's activity within Tibetan which is understandable, but let's not forget he also has Wisdom consorts from Nepal, Bhutan, and so on, and ndependent activities in these countries.

According to Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro there was also Terma outside of Vajrayana
Appeal to authority. See my point about the chain of authority leading nowhere. You never met JKCL. You have confidence in him because your teachers had confidence in their teachers who had confidence in him. See what I mean? It all depends on you having confidence in the person who taught you. You are in fact demonstrating my point.
Trying to shut down quoting from eminent lineage masters who are incredibly learned and realized in a conversation full of opinions is an ignorant thing to do. You can also call taking refuge an 'appeal to authority'. So yes, if you want to call it that, I am appealing to the authority of Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro who has given teachings to some of the greatest masters of all lineages, including H.H Dudjom Rinpoche, H.H Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, H.H Sakya Trinzin Rinpoche, H.H The Gyalwang Karmapa and so forth. I will not feel guilty, nor will I be made to feel mistaken for quoting any of these kind of teachers because they are in fact our lineage masters. Now I am not sure which authority you appeal to, would it be yourself only validating yourself?

"In the Nyingma Tradition, there is the lineage known as Terma (Treasure), which comes from the great Master of Uddiyana, Padmasambhava, who, after coming to Tibet, manifested all the many common and uncommon Dharma teachings for the King (Trisong Deutson) and his followers. They then gathered these together in order to protect and preserve the Dharma for the sentient beings of future degenerate times, and conceal them as mind and earth treasures. At appropriate times as a source of benefit and happiness for sentient beings and the Dharma.
I’m aware of what terma is, thanks
No one said that you didn't know what Terma is, I am merely providing a quote in full.

There are also many renowned Lineages of Pure Visions and of 'Ear Whispered Transmissions' existing in both 'new' and 'old' Secret Tantras.

Some scholars have questioned the validity of these Holy Treasures, but they need to examine the purpose and necessity of Terma. That these Treasures are the authentic Dharma is established by the three standard criteria of logical argument. So please be careful, because criticizing the Dharma with anger is a grave fault and will only cause your defilements to increase, becoming thick and heavy.
Where did I say terma was not valid Dharma. I quite literally said that one can’t logically accept tantra and reject terma as a concept as both are revealed teaching. Did you even read my post before disagreeing to it?


There is no need to take every line of the quote as a personal attack, it was merely cited to provide validation of the Terma beyond the scope of Tibet alone, (when you said it was entirely Tibetan.)

The "One Hundred Thousand Verses of the Prajnaparamita Sutra" etc. were Treasures revealed by Nagarjuna. Furthermore, many great Saints discovered and revealed Treasures of Sacred Writings of the Secret Tantra from the Stupa of Dhumathala in Uddiyana. And so, even in the Noble Land of India, we find Treasure revelations (Terma) occurring. There are many logical arguments concerning this, but I shall not present them here." extracted from Opening the Dharma, A brief explanation of the essence of the limitless vehicles of the Buddha
Not the same. He recovered them from nagas. He didn’t write a note for the guardian, plunge his hand into a rock etc. My point, which you seem to be completely ignoring, is that the system of revelation for terma, along with all its practices and customs, is something that arose after the Dharma left India. That’s not in dispute.
My point, which you also seem to be completely ignoring, is that according to Tertons themselves, (who yes, consider me crazy for listening to their perspective in this discussion) say that Terma arose pre-Tibet.
Look, your point seems to be to assert strict orthodoxy of belief over and over again. If so, good for you, but you seem to have missed the point of the discussion entirely. Neither I nor Simon are denying the validity of terma. We are just accepting that there isn’t *proof* of it’s validity beyond experience. That ought to be a completely uncontroversial statement.
There isn't anything beyond belief anyhow, even if you don't believe in something, you believe in the reasons for not believing it. So might as well believe in a path that leads to enlightenment and Rainbow body, and the teachers who teach that path, if you don't believe in either of these, probably you wouldn't even be on the spiritual path to begin with. Or practicing Terma for that matter. If you do believe in these guides, best to heed their words.

So since you mention that you do accept that Validity of Terma, and seem to not believe in listening to any authority beyond yourself, what is the basis of 'your' acceptance of the validity of Terma?
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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PeterC
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:31 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:44 am
Look, your point seems to be to assert strict orthodoxy of belief over and over again. If so, good for you, but you seem to have missed the point of the discussion entirely. Neither I nor Simon are denying the validity of terma. We are just accepting that there isn’t *proof* of it’s validity beyond experience. That ought to be a completely uncontroversial statement.
There isn't anything beyond belief anyhow, even if you don't believe in something, you believe in the reasons for not believing it. So might as well believe in a path that leads to enlightenment and Rainbow body, and the teachers who teach that path, if you don't believe in either of these, probably you wouldn't even be on the spiritual path to begin with. Or practicing Terma for that matter. If you do believe in these guides, best to heed their words.

So since you mention that you do accept that Validity of Terma, and seem to not believe in listening to any authority beyond yourself, what is the basis of 'your' acceptance of the validity of Terma?
I’ve told you - at least three times now, and even though this is the internet, repeating oneself is tiresome. Since you insist on missing the point quite impressively, even as you demonstrate the very point I’m making, I suggest we do not persist with this discussion.

Simon E.
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:38 am

“ Sonam Wangchug”you appear at this point in your journey to find it difficult to hear anything that lies beyond your own concretisation of subjects that in actuality are nuanced and subtle and about which even traditionalist teachers differ in interpretation.
And that’s OK. We are all where we need to be.
But Peter C is right. Further discussion seems to be pointless. Whenever a discussion descends to judgement about whether one party or another are “even on a spiritual path” it’s time to pack up the tent and leave that discussion with dignity. So I shall.

:namaste:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

tingdzin
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by tingdzin » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:44 am

As far as terma, it didn't start with Tibet. Even aside from the often-told story of Nagarjuna rediscovering the Prajnaparamita, and Vajrabodhi getting root tantras out of an iron stupa in S India, both Buddhist and Taoist traditions included the motif of hidden scriptural treasure to be unearthed at the proper moment centuries before Tibet heard of Buddhism.

As far as cultural appropriation, Buddhists have been doing that from the beginning, e.g.when the people of the Northwestern border areas of India rewrote Jatakas so that they allegedly happened in that area rather than Central India. "Cultural appropriation" is a negative, politically charged term for a fact that has been a feature of of cross-cultural interaction since there were cultures to interact with each other, though nowadays it's just another bloody banner to be waved to induce a feeling of aggrievedness among a population, generally for purposes of political manipulation. IMO, everything depends on the motivation of those who are doing it, and how accurately they understand and appreciate what the phenomenon in question really intends. Of course, I'm deeply suspicious of Western "tertons" because, after decades of being in touch with Western Buddhism, I have yet to meet any Westerner who remotely approached having the genuine spiritual depth to reveal treasure. As CTR said, it's not just roleplaying a charade to suck in the faithful. Of course, there were phony Tibetan tertons,too.

I admit tertons from anywhere as a possibility,though.

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Losal Samten
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Losal Samten » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:08 pm

https://www.academia.edu/35223956/TGSS_ ... dh%C4%81na

"In Śāntideva’s Śikṣāsamuccaya, citing the Sarvapuṇyasamuccaya-samādhi-sūtra:

“For, Vimalatejas, the Buddhas and Lords resident in other world systems show their faces to reverent
and respectful bodhisattvas and mahāsattvas wanting the dharma, and they cause them to hear the dharma.
Vimalatejas, treasures of the dharma are deposited in the interiors of mountains,
caves and trees for bodhisattvas and mahāsattvas wanting the dharma, and endless dharma-teachings in
book form come into their hands. Vimalatejas, deities
who have seen former Buddhas provide bodhisattvas and mahāsattvas wanting the dharma with the
inspired eloquence of Buddhas.”

‘Family resemblances’ (Familienähnlichkeit) shared by Tibetan sa gter and the Pratyutpannabuddha-samṃukhāvasthita-samādhi-sūtra

1. the rationale for burying teachings, as a hedge against future times of religious decline
2. precise prophecies of the future discoverers and of their discoveries
3. The eight future discoverers will be reincarnated direct disciples of the Buddha
4. the Buddha first directly teaches and then entrusts (gtad) these disciples with the teachings they
will rediscover again and again in repeated future lives
5. white-robed lay status of the eight future treasure recoverers
6. 500 prophecied recipients, who also heard the original teaching in their past lives, will repeatedly
be reborn to accompany the eight prophecied treasure discoverers, to receive, copy and propogate
the newly revealed teachings
7. treasure texts are stored in caskets
8. treasure caskets are hidden in such places as caves, stūpas, rocks and mountains
9. the hidden Treasure is protected during its long concealment by being put in the care of local
guardian deities or nagas
10. it is predicted that after revelation, Treasure texts might not readily be accepted by the wider
Buddhist public
11. the Tibetan translation of PraS shares some key technical terms with the rNying ma Treasure
tradition: gtad pa
12. There are also verses amenable to interpretation as prophecies of Tibet and its gter ma and of Padmasambhava"
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

mandog
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by mandog » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:23 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:21 pm
Received the 2020 Tara Mandala catalog yesterday. There's a full-page spread to the introduction of a terma which was first revealed by APR at Tara Mandala in 2002. The Rinpoche has told some of His senior students that the seal of secrecy for this terma is over and it's now time to teach it to others.
Anne Klein’s center in Texas also made similar announcements about his terma recently. Seems like she is also someone who had been told go propagate this teaching.

Also, both of these centers never mention his full name on the internet bc of political problems. They put strange punctuation in his name to throw off search engines from the ____ gov. I think best to not type his full name on here

Mods or Lama Pema maybe you could edit post to conceal APR’s name.
Last edited by Ayu on Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Edited on request.

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Harimoo
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Harimoo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:27 am

mandog wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:23 am

Also, both of these centers never mention his full name on the internet bc of political problems. They put strange punctuation in his name to throw off search engines from the ____ gov. I think best to not type his full name on here

Mods or Lama Pema maybe you could edit post to conceal APR’s name.
Are you sure ?

Malcolm
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:25 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:57 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:08 pm
:good: :woohoo:

Brings up a question .... what about Europe? :D

I just know that HH. Chetsang Rinpoche discovered some Vajradakini cave in the USA and founded a nunnery near the place. The cave was and still is a holy grounds for native americans around there. But not sure if my info is correct, but more can be found in his biography.
He had quite a bit of obstacles in discovering the cave (someone slammed his hand in the car door) and had to descend dangerously down a rope with his injured hand. He said it was Local spirit/s making obstacles.

I believe there was also Sindhura found in that cave.

I also heard that the late Kunzang Dechen Lingpa described an important cave shaped like a Phurba? In VT I think he saw it in his dream.


The so called Vajrayoginī cave in the Wild River, in Bristol, VT. is right here: https://goo.gl/maps/Cve4gvc8mMw6UBFc8. It is a very popular swimming spot frequented by thousands of people every year in the summer.The bank from the road down to the river is quite steep, and the cave can only be entered by wading through the manmade pool in front of its entrance. I have been in this cave, which is located behind the waterfall in the picture, many times, and yes, this is the cave that HH Chetsang Rinpoche allegedly identified as a source of sindhura. The original source of this story is David Arndt. When asked about it, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa did not agree, and thought it was just an ordinary place with ordinary clay, not sindhura at all. David was very disappointed to hear this, and chooses still to advertise this location as a Vajrayogini place. For him and the Drigung faithful, it is such a place. For others, not so much.

As for the "cave" on Deer Leap Rock (http://obscurevermont.com/wp-content/up ... 59_pe1.jpg), KDL did not have a dream about it, he just thought there was a cave up there, and when Pema Wangdi and David went up to investigate, sure enough there was a rock overhang that might serve as a cave with some improvements. I was in Lincoln the day they reported discovering a cave up there, though did not walk up there myself, as I was busy attending KDL. KDL thought that if there was a cave up there, as he suspected, it would be a good place to do retreat, having spent many years as a wandering mendicant before finally settling down in Rangapara, Assam. Also, I was in the car with KDL when he first noticed the rock face and opined it might have a cave. It was a result of his yogi's eye, and not a dream, that led to the discovery of that cave. He never mentioned anything about phurpas in relationship to that cave in my hearing. But I was not with him 24/7/365.

As far as Lincoln, VT. itself goes, however, it is the first place in the US where Kalu Rinpoche had a place, and has hosted many lamas over the years, principally Kagyu and Nyingma Lamas. It is a very special town, one of the most impressive towns in VT, from the point of view of its views and location. Some places one can look right down the valley and see Lake Champlain. The mountain range behind it has the appearance of a women lying on her side in repose, and Mt. Abe has the distinct shape of a breast. On eastern side of these mountains are a number of ski resorts, like Mad River Glen, etc. I am actually looking at Mt. Abe as I write this to you. So, sindhura or not, Lincoln VT. is a special place, where I have received many wonderful teachings from fantastic gurus, and that is really the main point.

Malcolm
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:39 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:21 pm

These days, I am sure Terma are still being revealed, as some have even mentioned in this thread, but who will validate it? and would everyone accept the validation? in these dregs of time where many people lack devotion.
KDL, when asked, said that anyone can be a terton, provided they have total devotion to Guru Rinpoche.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:51 pm

Malcolm, your back ?

Malcolm
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:36 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:51 pm
Malcolm, your back ?
From time to time.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: termas found outside of asia?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:36 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:51 pm
Malcolm, your back ?
From time to time.
That’s great news !

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