Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 10983
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:51 pm

tatpurusa wrote:The point is exactly this: is it her message, or is it one that was given to her by some others with a certain agenda?

Apparently some people weren't listening so I'll quote myself from earlier
Johnny Dangerous wrote: I'll leave the thread open to see if someone brings up actual points that can be debated instead of titillating conspiratorial bullshit, but my patience is wearing thing, so come correct or don't come at all.
Seriously, stop with vague innuendo, address what people are actually saying, or I will just close the thread.

I would do the same with a thread that is (for example) just Trump-bashing and no content.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

ShantiPeace
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:57 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by ShantiPeace » Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:58 pm

It's hard to find a middle ground, between too much and too little activity for a thread. One which is so slow there's no activity, or this, which got so much, both are difficult to talk.

I would say there's no real way for a discussion to take place here.

Besides saying, wow that is very bad, I can't really see this going anywhere.

There has to be a basework for discussion. Instead of that, this one just has a bunch of attacks...

User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1198
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:54 pm

Well, it seems that at least we are all in agreement that she should indeed be named Time person of the year. I think that's a win-win!

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 10983
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:19 pm

Ok, sounds like the wind is blowing that direction then.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 10402
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Queequeg » Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:17 pm

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

ShantiPeace
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:57 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by ShantiPeace » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:50 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:43 pm
Propaganda is usually characterized by omitting certain facts, misleading information, partisan, polticial affiliations, subjective bias etc.

An 'agenda' that is rooted in planetary system science isn't any of those things.
Well said.

User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1198
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:10 am

The real confusion for me is this...

The argument that what manifests is mere appearance is here being associated with the right.

The issue concerning the truth of perceived objects is here being associated with the left.

That means that I cannot in good faith align with the left.

I 'bumped' into Ann Gleig on facebook over this a while ago. I see it as fundamentally misguided. While "taking the fight" to the right might mean accepting their terms of the argument, it seems to me the left has given up its fundamentals.

User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1198
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by futerko » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:40 am

In very simple terms. There is no rational path where the possibility of something bad occurring results in a "let's wait and see" attitude - we have already taken a bit of a psychopathic turn...

but, on the other hand, any claim to know the truth is the very mark of ideology...

In what kind of universe does someone not only avoid an immediate response to the very possibility of this occurring, but then proceeds to argue about whether it is in fact true or not?

Surely the fact of the uncertainty is the reason for action and not the truth of the possibility?

muni
Posts: 4902
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by muni » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:38 am

Could be " action of the year", regarding our interdependent welfare.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:56 am

futerko wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:10 am
The real confusion for me is this...

The argument that what manifests is mere appearance is here being associated with the right.

The issue concerning the truth of perceived objects is here being associated with the left.

That means that I cannot in good faith align with the left.

I 'bumped' into Ann Gleig on facebook over this a while ago. I see it as fundamentally misguided. While "taking the fight" to the right might mean accepting their terms of the argument, it seems to me the left has given up its fundamentals.
There are people on *both* the right and left who are not climate sceptic yet have an inadequate knowledge of the science and how it should be influencing policy and governance.

It's not about taking the fight to the right or putting the left on some progressive faultless pedestal. The fact of the matter is that even left, liberal responses like carbon trading, taxes and so on are still massively inadequate.

This is why it's vital for a comprehensive understanding of the science being referenced for any subsequent conversation to be useful. I rarely see this, even among those on the left. The green new deals carbon taxes, offsettts, tree planting etc. Still not enough - risk perception, mitigation and response uunderstanding is still very basic in general for those outside or unaware of how these fields work. Funnily enough it's Insurance companies that are pushing things forward in this regard since their entire business models are based on risk perception.
ME’S PERSON OF THE YEAR
Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
by futerko » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:40 am

In very simple terms. There is no rational path where the possibility of something bad occurring results in a "let's wait and see" attitude - we have already taken a bit of a psychopathic turn...

but, on the other hand, any claim to know the truth is the very mark of ideology...
This is why we have something called the precautionary principle. If there is a significant risk, but there is a high or middling degree of uncertainty, then it's more responsible and sensible ;socially, economically, ecologically to take precautions rather than saying

" well no one really knows "

We have paleoclimatic records from long in our planets past that can help us inform where we are now and what could happen based upon what happened in the past under the swme conditons- the current state of temperatures, c02, rate of glacial melts and other tipping points all point towards a literal existential risk for much of life on the planet. It's not an overstatement. There is uncertainty for sure, but it's not tilted in our favour - we know with certainty there will be damage but we can't say for sure the extent and so mass action is a precaution we should reallty take to minimise the damage from future water, food, weather shocks.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 pm

I think the Boomers ended up being the most selfish generation in history. Their only defence is they were brainwashed by laissez faire capitalist doctrine. They climbed up the ladder built by the Greatest generation and then pulled it up after them. They won't live long enough to see the coming climate catastrophes. Maybe the world can heal once enough of these selfish monsters die off.

tingdzin
Posts: 1298
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tingdzin » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:48 am

Being TIME's "Person of the Year" really doesn't signify much. And the thread is not going to change anyone's mind about what they've already decided. It's all become part of the left vs. right Punch-and Judy show. I'm glad I'm as old as I am, and I really sympathize with the young people.

By the way, stop boomer-bashing. Not all of us are wealthy or even getting by.

User avatar
well wisher
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:57 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by well wisher » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:28 am

Nemo wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 pm
I think the Boomers ended up being the most selfish generation in history. Their only defence is they were brainwashed by laissez faire capitalist doctrine. They climbed up the ladder built by the Greatest generation and then pulled it up after them. They won't live long enough to see the coming climate catastrophes. Maybe the world can heal once enough of these selfish monsters die off.
I do agree with you that the current "capitalism" system is horribly flawed, unfair and very damaging to societies and environment. Stock market systems and the big banks' implemented "interest and debt system" resembles systematic wide swindling and public robbery, with wild price swings that often does not correlate with real life or company news or reality. Oppressive policies are in place that are heavily in favour of the rich against the poor: the current economic system is a form of the richest top 1% systematically pillaging and enslaving and victimizing the rest of bottom 99%, while exacerbating further ecnomic inequality heavily in favour of the few rich elites and well-connected political families. The current jobs and labour system no longer has any semblance of fairness: cronyism rules the day, while wealthy big corporate executives and bosses frequently engage in: wage-theft practices /deceitful cover-ups / offshore bank accounts hoarding & tax evasion / frequent firing s &layoffs / heartless A.I. automation replacements against workers.
Corporate laws and frequent lawsuits and outrageous fines and fees. are in place allowing the wealthy top corporate executives to escape proper business responsibility, while disallowing small business and common folks from competing or going independent. Currency manipulations done by big-governments causes trade-wars, iconic injustice unfairness, and even hyper-inflations that ruins an entire country's livelihood.
Forced consumerism upon the public causes massive amounts of pollution's & wastes & climate-changing carbon releases with increasing occurrences of natural disasters. As things continue without any changes or fixes, there are increasing chances of even more animal and human extinctions, thanks to the forces of greed.

It does seem true that the majority of the rich elites are boomers themselves, but not all boomers are rich selfish demons like the big corporate executives. I know some are environmental activists just like Ms. Thunderberg. (example: the Canadian David Suzuki).
And many boomers and their families are struggling in proverty0like conditions themselves too.
Yet it is unfortunate that some "activists" might hypocrites with their wasteful big-spending consumerists behaviour or frequent jet-flying polluting behaviour, or greedy money-obsess behaviours. People who actually walk their talk deserves more respect.

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:48 am
By the way, stop boomer-bashing. Not all of us are wealthy or even getting by.
So your generation had it's fight the Nazis moment. Climate change would have been easy to deal with 40 years ago. You collectively chose to do nothing. Looking at nonviolent revolutions only 3.5% of the population was needed to force the elites to act on it. The elites themselves chose to poison all future generations to enjoy a bit more ridiculous opulence. Kids today have inherited a world where millions will die, half a billion climate refugees will wander the earth, essential infrastructure needed for survival will be permanently destroyed, resource wars will fill everyone with fear, and even getting enough to eat is not guaranteed anymore. This is the best case scenario. The only consequence Boomers will feel from this collective decision to punish all future generations is some public censure. And even that they think is unfair.

OK Boomer.

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:02 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
You collectively chose to do nothing.
Frankly, that is a massive overvaluation of human agency.

Nothing has been done, that much is tragically obvious, and, worse still, nothing continues to be done, pretty much. But there has been very little, and still is, one can choose to do -- and the field is narrower still when the subject is plural, especially in capitalism. Boomers grew up in capitalism and are its children (and the fact that theirs was still a relatively benign -- to those within the city walls, of course -- version of the plague makes them even less capable of seeing it as a plague), how could they be anything else?

In any case, to make even a meaningful personal choice, one has to be well-informed (well-educated, actually), aware of one's agency and its implications, endowed with enough time and space to think it through, etc -- in other words, one has to be bred to do so, and live in a culture that genuinely encourages it. The world of boomers, though arguably less removed from it than ours, still was nothing of the sort. Also, later generations are hardly much more successful when it comes to effecting any actual social change, are they?
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2197
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:10 pm

I am mostly amazed by two things.

1st. Are the people who feel the need to actively hate Greta. I mean, I have my own reservations when it comes to her, but at the same time somebody has to do it. Some things are rather useless as her journey in a boat and that very unlucky german trains tweet. However, again... something has to be done.

2nd are people who don't see the opportunity. I mean, what is even there to debate? We are suffocating with dirty air, forests are lost, animals are lost. Even if you do not "believe" in global warming all of these are pretty effin obvious. And yet for some reason people do not consider it and instead talk bs like always. Global warming is not a political issue, it is an issue of a quality of life of humans everywhere.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:27 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:10 pm
Global warming is not a political issue, it is an issue of a quality of life of humans everywhere.
As well as of non-human life everywhere. Effectively addressing it, though, is very much a textbook political issue, and I would agree that it would be best if we -- i.e., people concerned about the state of the world -- saw it as that.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

tkp67
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by tkp67 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:34 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 pm
I think the Boomers ended up being the most selfish generation in history. Their only defence is they were brainwashed by laissez faire capitalist doctrine. They climbed up the ladder built by the Greatest generation and then pulled it up after them. They won't live long enough to see the coming climate catastrophes. Maybe the world can heal once enough of these selfish monsters die off.
I think ignorance is more appropriate a label and this would be in accordance to human behavior in the degenerate age.

The climate catastrophes are already happening. Many impoverished and indigenous people's and their nations are in peril and no one is discussing that because it is easier to argue about a person trying to polarize the world into action.

Seems without a pointed basis to achieve an end to suffering in all discourse, all humans revert in nature to ignorant perspectives because I can't find benefit to many perspectives in this regard.

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2197
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:27 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:10 pm
Global warming is not a political issue, it is an issue of a quality of life of humans everywhere.
As well as of non-human life everywhere. Effectively addressing it, though, is very much a textbook political issue, and I would agree that it would be best if we -- i.e., people concerned about the state of the world -- saw it as that.
Yeah, I chose the word poorly. I should have written ideaological.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:00 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:34 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:27 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:10 pm
Global warming is not a political issue, it is an issue of a quality of life of humans everywhere.
As well as of non-human life everywhere. Effectively addressing it, though, is very much a textbook political issue, and I would agree that it would be best if we -- i.e., people concerned about the state of the world -- saw it as that.
Yeah, I chose the word poorly. I should have written ideaological.
I was not really criticising you, and perhaps should have been clearer. What Greta (and XR, and many other persons/movements) is doing is invaluable, and it is great that the papers talk about her and praise her -- a good opportunity to press the issue. That said, what we need is a political movement, with both long and short term political aims -- feasible aims, moreover. XR has so far generally failed short here, which is perfectly understandable: while political actors involved are well-known, we know no legitimate means of effectively forcing them into action. There is some enthusiasm and energy building up, which is good news. Now if only we knew how to transform it into a political movement...
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: KRB80, Shaku Kenshin and 75 guests