Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

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Lingpupa
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa »

yeshegyaltsen wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:52 pm That is not the text I linked. I'll try again but I feel this is falling on deaf ears.
I'm sorry, I'm not 100% sure what you are saying, or which text your are referring to when you say "That is not..."
The text you linked to is the "Vajra Essence" which the Light of Berotsana people also call the "Tröma Nagmo Concise SĀdhana". They translate it's full title as:
A quintessential sadhana practice arranged in an extremely convenient
manner for fortunate disciples who always engage with
Ḍākinī Tröma Nagmo including all necessary supplementary prayers
entitled
The Vajra Essence
Is that what you meant?
(I'm getting muddled again.)
All the best
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yeshegyaltsen »

Sorry, you're right I did link to that text, ie the Trochung. but I meant to link to this text (the concise chod) https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... CW1PD96438
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa »

yeshegyaltsen wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:08 pm Sorry, you're right I did link to that text, ie the Trochung. but I meant to link to this text (the concise chod) https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... CW1PD96438
Oh, thanks. Now I think we all have clarity - on this at least! As to the true nature of my mind, I'm not so sure.

And thanks for reminding us of that resource, too.
All the best
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

the ngöndro table of context at Berotsana page doesn't mention mandala offering section. is it hidden somewhere?
Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am...If one wanted to dive deeply into Troma practice, the Troma ngondro is also accumulated as part of that path. This has some of the same sections (refuge, bodhicitta, mandala,) as the more concise “Lujin ngondro” that Lingpupa references above, however a unique four thoughts are included in the beginning, an elaborate purification using the Three Mothers in the middle, and an extensive (in length and profundity) Guru Yoga specific to Troma at the end. The majority of sections include the use of the Chod drum, bell and kangling...
another question is is it restricted material because of phowa section or because Thröma ngöndro is restricted? in other words, if someone didn't meet any Dudjom Tersar lama yet he can not get himrself acquainted with the Thröma tradition ngöndro text?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by TrimePema »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:26 am the ngöndro table of context at Berotsana page doesn't mention mandala offering section. is it hidden somewhere?
Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am...If one wanted to dive deeply into Troma practice, the Troma ngondro is also accumulated as part of that path. This has some of the same sections (refuge, bodhicitta, mandala,) as the more concise “Lujin ngondro” that Lingpupa references above, however a unique four thoughts are included in the beginning, an elaborate purification using the Three Mothers in the middle, and an extensive (in length and profundity) Guru Yoga specific to Troma at the end. The majority of sections include the use of the Chod drum, bell and kangling...
another question is is it restricted material because of phowa section or because Thröma ngöndro is restricted? in other words, if someone didn't meet any Dudjom Tersar lama yet he can not get himrself acquainted with the Thröma tradition ngöndro text?
the concise dudjom tersar ngondro is not restricted if you want to practice it, although you must get the lung at some point soon. Sometimes you can get the lung from Lama Sonam Rinpoche online if you sign up for the Dudjom Tersar Ngondro Program offered online and in person by Pema Osel Ling. You can also get it from any Dudjom lama and most nyingma lamas can probably give it to you also.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

thank you Trime Pema). i guess your answer is generally about Dudjom Tersar ngöndro though, while i am asking about Thröma Nakmo ngöndro specifically.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by ratna »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:26 am the ngöndro table of context at Berotsana page doesn't mention mandala offering section. is it hidden somewhere?
There is a section in the book on mandala offering.

R
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am thank you Trime Pema). i guess your answer is generally about Dudjom Tersar ngöndro though, while i am asking about Thröma Nakmo ngöndro specifically.
Well, Sangye Khandro's translation of DL's terma and one of its commentaries (both of which include the complete text of the TN medium ngondro) is freely available: https://www.berotsana.org/products/dudjom-lingpas-chod (It also includes the complete phowa section)

There are DT lamas who are perfectly OK with your reading/practising the TN ngondro even if you have not received a TN wang. There are DT lamas who will refuse to give you even the TN ngondro lung if you have not received a TN wang. There probably are some who go for something like the middle position here, whatever it would be.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by TrimePema »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am thank you Trime Pema). i guess your answer is generally about Dudjom Tersar ngöndro though, while i am asking about Thröma Nakmo ngöndro specifically.
To my knowledge, all the information about Troma is restricted until you complete ngondro and are then eligible for empowerment.

Your question seems to be regarding why the Troma ngondro is restricted, which is because it requires one to have already done the Dudjom Tersar ngondro, which is also part of the Troma cycle.

So, to answer your question, which I understood as: "if the Troma ngondro is restricted, but this is the starting point of the path, then how would one begin acquainting oneself with Troma before receiving the full teachings from a lama?" Your question presupposes the Troma ngondro is the starting point of the Troma path, which it is really not. The starting point of any Dudjom Tersar practices is the Dudjom Tersar ngondro. After completing the general ngondro there are then additional ngondros in each of the cycles that you would then be told to practice by your Lama. One of those cycles is Troma. That's why the answer to how to begin to become acquainted with Dudjom Troma is to do the concise ngondro of Dudjom Tersar, which is readily available without transmission and you can get the lung from almost any nyingma lama or even online via webcast.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

thank you Trema Pema.
do i understand it right that there are general short concise ngöndro and long one, which belongs to Dudjom Khandro Nyingthig cycle? i am confused about ngöndros of Dudjom Tersar. what is SaTer ngöndro?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by TrimePema »

yagmort wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:12 am thank you Trema Pema.
do i understand it right that there are general short concise ngöndro and long one, which belongs to Dudjom Khandro Nyingthig cycle? i am confused about ngöndros of Dudjom Tersar. what is SaTer ngöndro?
yes sater ngondro is from that cycle. my understanding is there is also a Troma ngondro to be done after completing either the short or medium ngondro (the concise Dudjom Rinpoche text or the medium sater ngondro from Dudjom Lingpa). It doesn't matter which one because they are the same essence.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

thank you brother
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

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I came across this, it might be interesting to people in this thread.
---
LIVESTREAM Oral Transmission and teaching with Lama Sonam Rinpoche Sunday Dec 8 @ 3 pm pacific

All are invited. Register here.
https://www.vajrayana.org/ngondro-program/
Donation covers one hour satellite air time.
---

The link appears after a donation which depends on ones generosity, so you can give whatever amount you want.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:11 pm
yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am thank you Trime Pema). i guess your answer is generally about Dudjom Tersar ngöndro though, while i am asking about Thröma Nakmo ngöndro specifically.
Well, Sangye Khandro's translation of DL's terma and one of its commentaries (both of which include the complete text of the TN medium ngondro) is freely available: https://www.berotsana.org/products/dudjom-lingpas-chod (It also includes the complete phowa section)

There are DT lamas who are perfectly OK with your reading/practising the TN ngondro even if you have not received a TN wang. There are DT lamas who will refuse to give you even the TN ngondro lung if you have not received a TN wang. There probably are some who go for something like the middle position here, whatever it would be.
DT Lama's who allow a student to practice the entire Throma Ngondro without a wang, or to begin the Throma Ngondro without a Wang?

As I have been taught, One can practice the Throma ngondro without a Wang, as long as one has the permission / lung of a qualified master. However, that is only up to the Seven-branch offering. In order to engage in the Three mothers purification and the Guru Yoga, one must have Throma wang.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:11 pm
yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am thank you Trime Pema). i guess your answer is generally about Dudjom Tersar ngöndro though, while i am asking about Thröma Nakmo ngöndro specifically.
Well, Sangye Khandro's translation of DL's terma and one of its commentaries (both of which include the complete text of the TN medium ngondro) is freely available: https://www.berotsana.org/products/dudjom-lingpas-chod (It also includes the complete phowa section)

There are DT lamas who are perfectly OK with your reading/practising the TN ngondro even if you have not received a TN wang. There are DT lamas who will refuse to give you even the TN ngondro lung if you have not received a TN wang. There probably are some who go for something like the middle position here, whatever it would be.
DT Lama's who allow a student to practice the entire Throma Ngondro without a wang, or to begin the Throma Ngondro without a Wang?

As I have been taught, One can practice the Throma ngondro without a Wang, as long as one has the permission / lung of a qualified master. However, that is only up to the Seven-branch offering. In order to engage in the Three mothers purification and the Guru Yoga, one must have Throma wang.
However strange it might sound, I am not making any of it up.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:15 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:11 pm

Well, Sangye Khandro's translation of DL's terma and one of its commentaries (both of which include the complete text of the TN medium ngondro) is freely available: https://www.berotsana.org/products/dudjom-lingpas-chod (It also includes the complete phowa section)

There are DT lamas who are perfectly OK with your reading/practising the TN ngondro even if you have not received a TN wang. There are DT lamas who will refuse to give you even the TN ngondro lung if you have not received a TN wang. There probably are some who go for something like the middle position here, whatever it would be.
DT Lama's who allow a student to practice the entire Throma Ngondro without a wang, or to begin the Throma Ngondro without a Wang?

As I have been taught, One can practice the Throma ngondro without a Wang, as long as one has the permission / lung of a qualified master. However, that is only up to the Seven-branch offering. In order to engage in the Three mothers purification and the Guru Yoga, one must have Throma wang.
However strange it might sound, I am not making any of it up.
I'm willing to guess that none of them are Dudjom Tersar family lineage holders.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:57 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:15 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:17 pm

DT Lama's who allow a student to practice the entire Throma Ngondro without a wang, or to begin the Throma Ngondro without a Wang?

As I have been taught, One can practice the Throma ngondro without a Wang, as long as one has the permission / lung of a qualified master. However, that is only up to the Seven-branch offering. In order to engage in the Three mothers purification and the Guru Yoga, one must have Throma wang.
However strange it might sound, I am not making any of it up.
I'm willing to guess that none of them are Dudjom Tersar family lineage holders.
I think I'll bow out at this stage, it is getting uncomfortably close to a situation in which family lineage holders are pitted against other lineage holders, and deemed more important by default.

For the record: I am all for getting the wang, lung and proper tri before one starts practising whatever it is that one wants to practice. But I know there are legitimate teachers out there who are very relaxed in such matters.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

Hi y’all, I haven’t checked in here for long stretch..catching up a little now. For what it’s worth, there’s a big variety of Lamas’ and Rinpoches’ styles in the Dudjom Tersar especially when it comes to formality and restrictions. Of course it’s best to find the Lama with which one feels a good affinity and whom inspires you, examine them as advised in WOMPT for some period of time at least (12 years is likely unrealistic in the acceleration of our current degeneration) etc., and then follow their guidance. There’s really no need to compare the advice of various lineage Lamas (which may appear formal to the general public however might get quite variable while working with individual students). It’d be a bit silly imho to seek out a Lama based on your liking or disliking of their public formal statements around rules and restrictions.

All that said, there is an entire tradition (as I’m sure I’ve mentioned elsewhere here) known as Namkha Kyung Dzong corresponding to the “Upper” Dudjom lineage / Dudjom Troluk , meaning descending directly from Dudjom Lingpa’s heart disciples rather than Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdral Yeshe Dorje. There is no conflict as anyone in this stream of lineage still revered Dudjom Rinpoche, however they kept their lineage going. Namkha Kyung Dzong is From Dudjom Lingpa —> Delgyal Rinpoche —> Golok Tsertar Rinpoche (who recognized Lama Dawa Chodaak at birth) —> 2nd Delgyal Rinpoche and Tsertar Rinpoche’s children, etc.. one of the main holders of this lineage alive today is Tulku Pema Rigtsal Rinpoche who toured the US a couple years back to share his book “The Great Secret of Mind” which has some stories from this lineage in it.

In this Dudjom lineage, as I understand it, many historically would jump right into Troma ngondro as their starting point, and go through the entire Troma path as their sole focus. I’m not sure if that’s still the case in the regions such as Humla, Nepal where the large gompas are where it’s still widely propagated. I’ll ask.

Side note of interest: some of the melodies and insertions and even the length of kangling blows are different in the medium length Troma Tsok in this tradition such that it may be hard for people trained in the Dudjom Rinpoche style to follow.. I’m sure there are variations in other Troma practices as well.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm...I’ll ask..
Adamantine, yes, please do.
about Pema Rigtsal my confusion is Thröma Nakmo practitioners has 3 vows of natural abiding from what i understand, one of them is not cutting hair. and Pema Rigtsal is a bhiksu whose 2 root gurus are from Longchen Nyigthig (Khenchen Dazer and Choying Khyabdel). i have not question about his qualification just wonder how that constitutes him as Dudjom Thröma lineage holder?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:08 am
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm...I’ll ask..
Adamantine, yes, please do.
about Pema Rigtsal my confusion is Thröma Nakmo practitioners has 3 vows of natural abiding from what i understand, one of them is not cutting hair. and Pema Rigtsal is a bhiksu whose 2 root gurus are from Longchen Nyigthig (Khenchen Dazer and Choying Khyabdel). i have not question about his qualification just wonder how that constitutes him as Dudjom Thröma lineage holder?
Yagmort, I’m not sure where you’re getting these ideas from? Yes there is a yogi hair wang from the Troma that one can take, however plenty of people don’t take that optional samaya and still practice Troma. What’s more, if one does shave the head and take that samaya, one expression of following it is to let the hair grow without any cutting. Another is to always keep it very short, never growing past a certain point like a Bikshu. In fact Dudjom Lingpa’s heart disciple Delgyal Rinpoche from whom Namkha Kyung Dzong lineage descends was a gelong himself, so would have kept his hair accordingly. There is no conflict. He was after all one of the prophesied 13 disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. So it would seem Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the lineage quite thoroughly. That said, Delgyal Rinpoche’s heart disciple Golok Serta Rinpoche had long dreadlocks that extended to the ground... so he clearly kept the hair vow diligently through letting it grow without ever cutting it... and he received that vow from his short haired monastic yogi teacher Delgyal Rinpoche. I hope this is clarifying things for you. On top of that, these days among modern Dudjom lineage Lamas they sometimes appear very lenient with the hair commitment. In general, once one takes the vow, if you’re keeping the version where you allow it to grow naturally.. you can still cut it as long as you seek permission from the Lama who bestowed the samaya vow. And there’s clearly lineage holders who propagate Troma specifically such as Garab Dorje Rinpoche who don’t keep their hair either very short or very long. So it seems that some Lamas don’t feel keeping their hair very short or uncut is so essential. That said I’m confident Tulku Pema Rigtsal likely follows the conduct of a gelong as well as keeping the hair samaya in the second version i mentioned. You’d have to ask him specifically for more details. Please note that the Dudjom Yangsis both seem to trim their hair, and they would be the primary lineage holders of the entire Tersar including Troma. I’m sure either one of them would be a good source to ask about the particulars of Troma yogi commitments.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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