The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:35 pm

It would appear that the Dalai Lama has surrounded himself with new female Oracles.

Here is a link to an article on May 17, 2019 from the Dalai Lama's website, https://www.dalailama.com/news/2019/off ... i-lama/amp

Quote
At a certain point in proceedings, after the dispatching of the five dakinis, the Nechung Oracle and the oracles of Dorje Yamakyong, Nyenchen Thangla, and Kharak Khyung Tsün approached His Holiness in trance, dancing and offering prayers.
Unquote

There is a nice photo showing the Dalai Lama with female Oracles standing in front of him and bowing.

You can already include the female Medium Tsering Chenga Oracle into the total count of female Oracles the Dalai Lama now has.

I don't know if these new Oracles are replacing the former State Oracles the Gadong Oracle and the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle.

Both of these Oracles come from the "Family Lineage" Oracle tradition were a male member of the family replaces the father after his death.

Both the Gadong and the Lamo Tsangpa Oracles are now deceased and the "Deity" has not chosen to entered into any of the sons.

User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 8040
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Ayu » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:28 pm

The article you have linked in only describes an ordinary longlife ceremony. You can't derive any further information about the oracles from it, I think.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire, England

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:37 pm

greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:35 pm
There is a nice photo showing the Dalai Lama with female Oracles standing in front of him and bowing.
There aren't any photos of the oracles, I think the photo you are referring to is of the 5 dakinis which are normally monks in costume.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:12 pm

I maybe wrong about the photo but what about the quote from this article on the Dalai Lama's website.

the Nechung Oracle and the ORACLES of Dorje Yamakyong, Nyenchen Thangla, and Kharak Khyung Tsün approached His Holiness in trance, dancing and offering prayers.


It states that they "approached His Holiness in TRANCE".

It would appear to me that it is a important matter that these three female Oracles were in the company of the Nechung Oracle and performing the duties of Oracles in front of the Dalai Lama.

Could they be "NEW" State Oracles to take the place of the now deceased Gadong and Lamo Tsangpa Oracles?

:shrug:
Last edited by Ayu on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote.

User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Yorkshire, England

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:09 am

They are oracles for the tenma deities so it's not that unusual, the Tibetan Government and His Holiness rely on multiple.
greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:12 pm
It states that they "approached His Holiness in TRANCE".

It would appear to me that it is a important matter that these three female Oracles were in the company of the Nechung Oracle and performing the duties of Oracles in front of the Dalai Lama.

Could they be "NEW" State Oracles to take the place of the now deceased Gadong and Lamo Tsangpa Oracles?

:shrug:
It just means that the deities have been invoked, Nechung is the state oracle of Tibet the others are just consulted in support of this.

Are the oracle female? I've not found information on them
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:08 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:09 am
They are oracles for the tenma deities so it's not that unusual, the Tibetan Government and His Holiness rely on multiple.
greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:12 pm
It states that they "approached His Holiness in TRANCE".

It would appear to me that it is a important matter that these three female Oracles were in the company of the Nechung Oracle and performing the duties of Oracles in front of the Dalai Lama.

Could they be "NEW" State Oracles to take the place of the now deceased Gadong and Lamo Tsangpa Oracles?

:shrug:
It just means that the deities have been invoked, Nechung is the state oracle of Tibet the others are just consulted in support of this.

Are the oracle female? I've not found information on them
Here is a link to the FMPT org. website that shows a photo of the Nyenchen Thangla Oracle.

https://fpmt.org/mandala/online-feature ... -bodhgaya/

Here you will find a facebook posting of a photo of the Dorje Yamakhong Oracle.



Here you will find a link about an article about the Kharak Khyung Tsun Oracle that states that she is a woman.

http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/photos/6 ... dalai-lama

Quote
The next oracle to appear was that of Kharak Khyung Tsün, one of the Twelve Tenma. She danced with arms raised, paid her respects to His Holiness, and left the stage.
Unquote

I am a newbie at all of this and I put this out to see if anyone help clue me in on more info about this new Oracles.

Hope this helps.

User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 8040
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Ayu » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:36 am

As far as I understand, oracle is no stable position. There are male and female oracles and they leave this position as well. The person who's slips into this roll is not so important. More important are the deities they represent.
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... ma_Sisters
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:57 pm

The Lamo Tsangpa Oracle (number 3 State Oracle) who took trance of Tsangpa Karpo (White Brahmin) passed away in 2003. The Lamo Tsangpa Oracular lineage is a family lineage which means that when the Oracle dies one of his sons is chosen by Tsangpa Karpo to take his place. To date Tsangpa Karpo has not chosen any of the sons.

The Gadong Oracle (number 2 State Oracle) who took trance of Shinjachen passed away in 2015. This is also a family Oracular lineage and to date Shinjachen has not chosen any of the late Gadong Oracle's sons.

The 14th Dalai Lama has always had numerous State Oracles to assist him in his duties.

Could these three female Oracles be replacing the Gadong and Lamo Tsangpa Oracles since there is no signs that they will be returning to help the Dalai Lama anytime soon?

jmlee369
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:22 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by jmlee369 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:08 am

His Holiness has recognised many oracles, but that does not make them state oracles. I believe Nyenchen Thangla has been possessing his medium for some time, but has only started appearing in official functions a few years ago (the Nyenchen Thangla medium is male). Anyway, you can see five of them in action in this video up to the 1hr 15min mark(corresponding article). There are five oracles who make an appearance, the Tseringma, Kharak Khyuntsun, Dorje Yamakyong, Nechung, and Nyenchen Thangla. Three female, two male. You can see the different oracles more clearly in this other video (corresponding article). I find the Kharak Khyungtsun quite funny/interesting to watch, in the first video she is kind of speaking/shouting at the high lamas for a while and doing her characteristic dance. In the second video, she looks very serene and calm in contrast to the other oracles. They show up at the long life pujas on behalf of the gods to request that His Holiness live long.

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:14 am

Does anyone know who recognized these three Oracles.

There is an interesting video that states that the Nechung Oracle has been used to recognize an Oracle in the past.

Here is a link to that youtube video that has the late 9th Jetsun Dampa Rinpoche talk about this process.

The video is title "The Oracle - Keeper of Wisdom".

He is speaking about the female Tenma Oracle and how she and the Nechung Oracle meet while in trance.

During this joint trance Dorje Drakden spoke thru the Nechung Oracle and recognized the Tenma Oracle as being a true Oracle of the Tenma Goddesses.


Norwegian
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:17 am

greenvajrapani27,

With regards to the Nechung oracle, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conducted rigorous tests to ensure it was Nechung. Then with regards to the Tenma / Tsering Che-nga oracle, the Nechung oracle confirmed this recognition, but also others. I don't know about the process with regards to the other oracles, but I am very certain that it is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, other realized masters, as well as Nechung, etc. that recognized these.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 am

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:17 am
With regards to the Nechung oracle, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conducted rigorous tests to ensure it was Nechung. Then with regards to the Tenma / Tsering Che-nga oracle, the Nechung oracle confirmed this recognition, but also others. I don't know about the process with regards to the other oracles, but I am very certain that it is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, other realized masters, as well as Nechung, etc. that recognized these.
I'd be interested to hear more about these tests. Are they done each time the medium goes into trance? to find out who is really talking. Or dont the gods just say who they are after they go into the medium?

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:57 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 am
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:17 am
With regards to the Nechung oracle, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conducted rigorous tests to ensure it was Nechung. Then with regards to the Tenma / Tsering Che-nga oracle, the Nechung oracle confirmed this recognition, but also others. I don't know about the process with regards to the other oracles, but I am very certain that it is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, other realized masters, as well as Nechung, etc. that recognized these.
I'd be interested to hear more about these tests. Are they done each time the medium goes into trance? to find out who is really talking. Or dont the gods just say who they are after they go into the medium?
The Nechung Oracle tested a woman on March 2018 and recognized her as the Mamaki Oracle.

Here is the link to that article which is found on this website, viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:43 am

This is from the Mamaki Oracle (Yeye Omileye) website http://www.yeyeosun.com/about/

Quote
About Yeye Omileye, M.Ed, NCC, LPCA............In India, June 2018, She has also received the recognition ceremony of being a vessel and oracle of the Water Mother Deity Mamaki, by Kuten La, Tibetan State Medium to the Nechung Oracle........
Unquote

Norwegian
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Norwegian » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:31 pm

greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:57 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 am
Norwegian wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:17 am
With regards to the Nechung oracle, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conducted rigorous tests to ensure it was Nechung. Then with regards to the Tenma / Tsering Che-nga oracle, the Nechung oracle confirmed this recognition, but also others. I don't know about the process with regards to the other oracles, but I am very certain that it is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, other realized masters, as well as Nechung, etc. that recognized these.
I'd be interested to hear more about these tests. Are they done each time the medium goes into trance? to find out who is really talking. Or dont the gods just say who they are after they go into the medium?
The Nechung Oracle tested a woman on March 2018 and recognized her as the Mamaki Oracle.

Here is the link to that article which is found on this website, viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki
Please read the thread before you repeat the idea that the Nechung oracle recognized this woman as an oracle of Mamaki, which is just absurd and impossible.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:13 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:31 pm
greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:57 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:16 am


I'd be interested to hear more about these tests. Are they done each time the medium goes into trance? to find out who is really talking. Or dont the gods just say who they are after they go into the medium?
The Nechung Oracle tested a woman on March 2018 and recognized her as the Mamaki Oracle.

Here is the link to that article which is found on this website, viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki
Please read the thread before you repeat the idea that the Nechung oracle recognized this woman as an oracle of Mamaki, which is just absurd and impossible.

This is in response to your claim that "the idea that the Nechung oracle recognized this woman as an oracle of Mamaki, which is just absurd and impossible.".

Here is a link to Dharmawheel's page two of the article titled "Nechung Kuten recognizes Yeye Omileye".

Scroll down a bit and you will see a beautiful picture of the Nechung Oracle and the newly recognized Mamaki Oracle.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki&start=20

Here is a link to the Mamaki Oracle's website that show's a picture of here in her full "Oracular" robes.

The caption reads "Osun (Mamaki) Oracle Initiation Ceremony, March 2018".

http://www.yeyeosun.com/photo-gallery/

Here is a link to the Mamaki Oracle website were she has done a MP3 recording about her journey to being recognized by the Nechung Oracle.

http://www.yeyeosun.com/wp-content/uplo ... edited.mp3

Here is a quote from page one from the article "Nechung Kuten recognizes Yeye Omileye.

The quote came from the Mamaki Oracle's website in 2018 but it appears to have since been removed by her.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki

Quote
It was a ceremony prepared and officiated by Nechung Kuten La, Medium for the State Oracle of Tibet, who shared with all present the fascinating tale of the adventures he had to go on to make the ceremony happen – including his travels to Mongolia for the Mamaki crown, trip to Nepal after a 25 year absence to bring back the Melong (oracle) mirror and he even found time to personally put the precious pearls on himself.
The elaborate recognition ceremony took place in Dharamsala India. It’s historicness was emphasized by Kuten La, who explained to those present that Mamaki, had not manifested before in living memory. He also explained the Tibetan Water Mother/Buddha and Osun the Yoruba Water Mother whom Venerable Yeye Omileye carries an ancient title for – are one Water Goddess just different cultures.
Venerable Yeye Omileye had no idea whom this Oracle was, much less how to find him. Yet she reveals that a series of miraculous events led her to him, and him inviting her to Dharamsala India to share her visions with him. This story is loaded with synchronicity, for Kuten La revealed to Yeye Omileye, two days before she arrived in Dharamsala the Nechung Oracle, whom he is a medium for, “shared the same visions, with the same level of intensity that made you come to India.” After that the two stayed in touch.
Unquote

Norwegian
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Norwegian » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 pm

greenvajrapani27,

You didn't read the thread. Or you didn't understand what was written. It is impossible for a Buddha to manifest as an oracle. This is something that is common knowledge, and has been said by many teachers, including His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Oracles are worldly beings. Not Buddhas. They're never Buddhas. For example, when HHDL talks about Nechung, he says it is never the case that he bows to the Nechung, because it is the Nechung who should bow to him. Oracles are in a much lower position than HHDL, and they very well know this themselves.

Mamaki is a Buddha, and the consort of Ratnasambhava. Buddhas do not manifest as oracles. Yeye Omileye is simply not understanding what the Nechung oracle or Thubten Ngodrup said. She is confused, and if you read her writings about Tibetan Buddhism and listen to her podcast, that much will be evident. Like I said, please re-read that thread and pay attention to the arguments there.

If you think for just one second that oracles can be Buddhas, you're making the same mistake Dolgyalpas are doing, and they have been admonished many times by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and other realized masters for doing what they're doing.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

greenvajrapani27
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:53 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by greenvajrapani27 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:42 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 pm
greenvajrapani27,

You didn't read the thread. Or you didn't understand what was written. It is impossible for a Buddha to manifest as an oracle. This is something that is common knowledge, and has been said by many teachers, including His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Oracles are worldly beings. Not Buddhas. They're never Buddhas. For example, when HHDL talks about Nechung, he says it is never the case that he bows to the Nechung, because it is the Nechung who should bow to him. Oracles are in a much lower position than HHDL, and they very well know this themselves.

Mamaki is a Buddha, and the consort of Ratnasambhava. Buddhas do not manifest as oracles. Yeye Omileye is simply not understanding what the Nechung oracle or Thubten Ngodrup said. She is confused, and if you read her writings about Tibetan Buddhism and listen to her podcast, that much will be evident. Like I said, please re-read that thread and pay attention to the arguments there.

If you think for just one second that oracles can be Buddhas, you're making the same mistake Dolgyalpas are doing, and they have been admonished many times by His Holiness the Dalai Lama and other realized masters for doing what they're doing.
Hello Norwegian

You stated to me that "You didn't read the thread. Or you didn't understand what was written."

Could you point out in MY threads were I said that it WAS possible for a Buddha to manifest as an oracle.

I never did and I never will and I think we both hold the same position in regards to this strange recognition(?).

I was just relaying the information that was put out there by this so called Mamaki Oracle.

What truly disturbs me is the connection the Nechung Oracle has to this affair.

What was the Nechung's role in all of this?

What was he doing in those photos with the Mamaki Oracle?

They were both wearing oracular robes at some sort of ceremony at the Nechung Monastery.

Her story is that the Nechung Oracle went to Mongolian to be the Mamaki crown head piece.

That after 25 years absence the Nechung Oracle went to Nepal to get a Mamaki Oracle mirror (melong).

Did the Dalai Lama know what the Nechung Oracle was doing?

Why are there no other articles referencing this recognition of the Mamaki Oracle on the web?

Had this all been legitimate the Dalai Lama would have publicly declared it to be legitimate.

Not a single word about this Mamaki Oracle's recognition from the Dalai Lama, the CTA or any Tibetan newspaper.

Today I sent emails to the Office of the Dalai Lama and CTA's Department of Religion about this Mamaki Oracle's claims.

There is no email address that I could find for the Nechung Oracle.

It is the Nechung Oracle that has a LOT of explaining to do about all of this.

Has he gone ROGUE and thinks he can self declare a person to be an Oracle or a Tulku and that self declaration is valid without the Dalai Lama's concurrence?

It appears that the Nechung Oracle masterminded this entire affair and needs to explain himself to the public.

If he doesn't the public may very will stop trusting him as a State Oracle.

So Norwegian I hope this clears up any misunderstandings between us.

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:04 pm

greenvajrapani27 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:42 pm

Today I sent emails to the Office of the Dalai Lama and CTA's Department of Religion about this Mamaki Oracle's claims.
That is the correct procedure for checking on things like this.

Norwegian
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles

Post by Norwegian » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:20 pm

greenvajrapani27,

Your post and the way it was written led me to believe you supported the idea of there being a Mamaki oracle, so that's why I wrote the above.

I would be interested in hearing the response from the Office of the Dalai Lama and CTA's Department of Religion, if you ever do get one.
So Norwegian I hope this clears up any misunderstandings between us.
Indeed.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

Locked

Return to “Gelug”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests