Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:36 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Misguided people might use black magic to harm others but the moment they do they cease to be buddhist.
And anyway, I don't know about you, but I cause harm all the time (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not) does that mean every tme I am causing harm I cease to be a Buddhist?
If you intentionally harm others you break your refuge commitments, your precepts, your bodhisattva vows and your tantric vows.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:19 am

Tilopa wrote:If you intentionally harm others you break your refuge commitments, your precepts, your bodhisattva vows and your tantric vows.
And you cease being a Buddhist?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:46 am

Tilopa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart
Of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves!
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern!
Tear out the heart of this self-centred butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

What's this then? Sounds like a curse to me.
It's an exhortation to destroy the demon of self cherishing and nothing to do with black magic.
I know what it is and anyway I said "curse" not "black magic" so stop projecting.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3698
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Adamantine » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:50 am

gregkavarnos wrote: I know what it is and anyway I said "curse" not "black magic" so stop projecting.
:namaste:
If you know what it is then why would you call it a curse?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:04 am

Because it is?!
A curse (also called execration) is any expressed wish that some form of adversity or misfortune will befall or attach to some other entity—one or more persons, a place, or an object. In particular, "curse" may refer to a wish that harm or hurt will be inflicted by any supernatural powers, such as a spell, a prayer, an imprecation, an execration, magic, witchcraft, a god, a natural force, or a spirit. In many belief systems, the curse itself (or accompanying ritual) is considered to have some causative force in the result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
definition of curse 1: a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one : imprecation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/curse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why else would I call it a curse? :shrug:
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:33 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Tilopa wrote:If you intentionally harm others you break your refuge commitments, your precepts, your bodhisattva vows and your tantric vows.
And you cease being a Buddhist?
Not if there is repentance, purification and restoration of the vows.
Last edited by Tilopa on Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:05 am

...a curse is any expressed wish that some form of adversity or misfortune will befall or attach to some other entity—one or more persons, a place, or an object. In particular, "curse" may refer to a wish that harm or hurt will be inflicted by any supernatural powers, such as a spell, a prayer, an imprecation, an execration, magic, witchcraft, a god, a natural force, or a spirit.
Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart
Of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves...
Why else would I call it a curse
No idea at all.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:38 am

It is a curse directed at our most pernicious and dangerous enemy, our clinging to self. It is a wish that we direct our enlightened wisdom capacity (personified in the figure of Yamantaka, some may see this as a supernatural power) to "harm" or destroy our preponderance to grasp and cling to the five skhandas (which is personified as the self or ego).

But it seems that it is useless talking to you as you have already made up your mind and merely overlook any statement or point that I make that happens to challenge your fixated aversion towards the term "curse".
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:40 am

davcuts wrote: The problem that scares me is there are teachers who seem to be suffering from inflated egos, if not down right mental illness. Black magic in the hands of these individuals seems scary to me. What they view as protecting Dharma, to me is nothing more than a person using witchcraft on those who oppose them. It has nothing to do with protecting Dharma, but more to do with taking vengeance.
I think you are 100% correct.
Today I received an amulet in the mail, plus blessing pills of the Dalai Lama and ricecorn from Gendun Rinpoche. It was very kind of the person to send these items to help protect me from black magic, but at the same time if some nut job wouldn't be using black magic in the first place these items would not be needed. I just wish this wasn't an issue. Black magic seems to go against everything I have been taught in Vajrayana. That's why I wonder if it originally came from Bon.
Black magic is not that uncommon but it isn't consistent with dharma principles so you are probably right in thinking it's baggage from pre-buddhist Tibet.

Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:45 am

gregkavarnos wrote: But it seems that it is useless talking to you as you have already made up your mind and merely overlook any statement or point that I make that happens to challenge your fixated aversion towards the term "curse"
No need to be hostile or unkind.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:46 am

Tilopa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: But it seems that it is useless talking to you as you have already made up your mind and merely overlook any statement or point that I make that happens to challenge your fixated aversion towards the term "curse"
No need to be hostile or unkind.
Absolutely none whatsoever!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tilopa
Posts: 487
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Tilopa » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:47 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: But it seems that it is useless talking to you as you have already made up your mind and merely overlook any statement or point that I make that happens to challenge your fixated aversion towards the term "curse"
No need to be hostile or unkind.
Absolutely none whatsoever!
:namaste:
:smile: :smile: :smile:

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:08 pm

PS I believe that your defintion of what is a Buddhist is too narrow and strict. Basically what you are saying is that to be a Buddhist one must be an Arhat. I define harming others as any behaviour which causes suffering to arise in another being (this is why I asked you at the beginning of the thread to define harm). According to this definition though harm is impossible to avoid. Of course it is, we are in samsara.

As long as the three types of suffering occur (and especially sankhara dukha) any action may be considered as a harmful action, an action causing suffering. (e.g. why is he being nice to them and not nice to me?! boo-hoo-hoo! etc...) Only a Buddha can see the full consequences of any action and thus act in a way that does not bring suffering/harm. What does that mean? That as Buddhists all we can do is our best (for now) and hopefully acquire enough merit to realise our Buddha Nature so that we can bring an end to suffering for all sentient beings. Until then, I believe, we just stumble along and take every hiccup as a lesson to be learnt that will guide us towards our final goal (ie we should never underestimate the strength of (our) negative force of habit and we should not let it derail from our attempt to reach our goal).
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
ronnewmexico
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by ronnewmexico » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:26 pm

I did not approach this as first as this was not elicited but some have ventured so I may...



I find things of spell means evident, I will find these things and crush stomp on them and elicit their response.
I have not a fear of these things as better I who has no fear not a drop of it nor concern on what they may cause it is better I may suffer
these things.

So tell whoever you meet that casts such spell it is this one that causes you to incite their hatred and curse.
Yes send them way.. say not yours is this fault...I will await their arrival with open arms.
I see spell and there are many in spots here and there if knowing what to look for such is easy to spot.
Stopped I did destroying them and causeing them their cause upon me...tomorrow I go and will see these things, here and there.
So I will do that. and start again...

so I am incited to action and my advice...consider my advice...I may better suffer this thing that another innocent one may not.
Those that throw such things they will throw them that is their karma and fate.....so throw them at me...demons sourcers and other...

better me than them. So that is my opinion on this thing..I practice no bodhisattva but what greater opportunity to be kind than that...so a pure innocent be not harmed...I will do that. Tomorrow I will find that and do that...I know where to look.
Words it seems are pretty useless, so found we may do things.

SEnd them my way if you can so do...I await them, in wilderness peak storm death and destruction I await them.
Puss blood muscle torn and shredded no brain with which to speak....I know consequence and await them...better me than a innocent, always in this time and day.

DEmons and such like to fight strife great fear is their greound..with this I entice them....
phpBB [video]

this sort of thing described in song...when they arrive I will sing to them. They will eat me...what they eat they know not what.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Dechen Norbu » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:25 am

Do your practice regularly and consult your lama if he knows how to deal with this sort of stuff.
There are practices with negative beings that may bring harm to others, as you are aware. That past group of yours is known to propitiate that nasty gyalpo, so better safe than sorry. Probably you are just impressed and it's nothing, but just in case talk to your lama and explain your situation, past included.
Tell us how it goes.

PS- People with faith in their refuge also suffer from negative provocations. One needs to be careful with one's ego and stop imagining one is where one isn't yet. Refuge is both the beginning and the end of the path. People in between must consider their circumstances in a realistic way. So, you lose nothing if you ask for help.

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3698
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Adamantine » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:48 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Because it is?!
A curse (also called execration) is any expressed wish that some form of adversity or misfortune will befall or attach to some other entity—one or more persons, a place, or an object. In particular, "curse" may refer to a wish that harm or hurt will be inflicted by any supernatural powers, such as a spell, a prayer, an imprecation, an execration, magic, witchcraft, a god, a natural force, or a spirit. In many belief systems, the curse itself (or accompanying ritual) is considered to have some causative force in the result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
definition of curse 1: a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one : imprecation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/curse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why else would I call it a curse? :shrug:
:namaste:
Exhortations like this are mental practices meant to target psychological states. There is no "entity" in conventional reality that is the object of a curse. In your definition provided by wiki a curse is any expressed wish that some form of adversity or misfortune will befall or attach to some other entity—one or more persons, a place, or an object. "Self cherishing" is none of these. So it does not qualify as a curse.

Regardless, this whole obsession with the word "curse" isn't even relevant since the OP was clearly inquiring about black magic. Unless you are conflating the two, then your discussion of curses is off-topic (since above you state
I know what it is and anyway I said "curse" not "black magic" so stop projecting.
Well since davcuts used the terms interchangeably in his original post, it is clear he intended them to be understood as synonyms.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Kunga
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:58 am
Location: Nepal

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Kunga » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:54 am

There's definitely an Indian precedent for this kind of thing. You need only look at some of the Vajrakumara tantras to see curses and imprecations that would make your hair curl. And it sounds pretty worldly in focus, too - so much so that some, like Tsongkhapa, thought it wasn't Buddhist but black magic, and was a Tibetan invention, which is why Varjakumara isn't practiced 'officially' by the Gelugpas. But this practice is 100% Indian in origin.

User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 3698
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Adamantine » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:07 am

Kunga wrote:There's definitely an Indian precedent for this kind of thing. You need only look at some of the Vajrakumara tantras to see curses and imprecations that would make your hair curl. And it sounds pretty worldly in focus, too - so much so that some, like Tsongkhapa, thought it wasn't Buddhist but black magic, and was a Tibetan invention, which is why Varjakumara isn't practiced 'officially' by the Gelugpas. But this practice is 100% Indian in origin.
In most of the major tantras there are loads of things that are written in coded language. The problem with modern scholars without authentic oral lineage is they translate them literally, not knowing what the hell is really going on. These texts need to be unlocked, and unfolded, by lineage holders.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Kunga
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:58 am
Location: Nepal

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Kunga » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:17 am

Of course, Adamantine, but if people like Tsongkhapa, who were not exactly ignorant of such coded language themselves, thought this sort of thing was black magic, it's easy to see how misunderstandings arise. I was merely pointing out that there is an Indian precedent for the kinds of rites to which the original poster refers.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14830
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Black magic, is it Vajrayana or Bon?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:30 am

Adamantine wrote:Exhortations like this are mental practices meant to target psychological states. There is no "entity" in conventional reality that is the object of a curse. In your definition provided by wiki a curse is any expressed wish that some form of adversity or misfortune will befall or attach to some other entity—one or more persons, a place, or an object. "Self cherishing" is none of these. So it does not qualify as a curse.
In your opinion, in my opinion http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... =20#p51793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:namaste:
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: an_user, Bing [Bot], Tanaduk and 47 guests