Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

TheRainsSeason
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Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by TheRainsSeason » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:36 pm

New to the forum here.

I don't know much about Zen. I wondered if Zen had a kind of Progress of Insight similar to the Theravada tradition?

TheRainsSeason
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by TheRainsSeason » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:26 pm

I found this: Maha Gopalaka Sutta from which the Ten Bulls were illustrated.

Are there any others?

(I couldn't edit my original post - don't know why)

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Ayu
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Ayu » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:28 pm

TheRainsSeason wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:26 pm
....

(I couldn't edit my original post - don't know why)
Welcome to DW. :namaste:
It's because you're newly registered and your posts need approval. Once you submitted you can't edit.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Astus
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Astus » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:10 pm

Huineng distinguished only between enlightened and unenlightened:

'With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)

Baizhang Huaihai spoke of three stages:

'If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.
Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.
Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.'

(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 30-31)

Dogen did not differentiate stages:

'The view that practice and realization are not one is skewed outside of the Way. In the Buddha Dharma practice and realization are one and the same. This is the practise of realization, and so from the beginning practice is the whole body of original Awakening.'
(Bendowa, p 13)

Shengyan taught about three stages:

Stage 1:
To balance the development of body and mind in order to attain mental and physical health. Various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting, and reclining are used.

Stage 2:
From the sense of the small "I" to the large "I." When you practice the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, for example, huatou or silent illumination, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small "I" until it coincides with time and space. The small "I" merges into the entire universe, forming a unity.

Stage 3:
From the large "I" to no "I." Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan.

(Three Stages of Chan Meditation; see more here)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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LastLegend
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 am

Anyone of us can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore, but there is personal progress of wisdom even for enlightened people?
Make personal vows.

TheRainsSeason
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by TheRainsSeason » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:12 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 am
Anyone of us can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore, but there is personal progress of wisdom even for enlightened people?
In my current understanding, wisdom does not seem to be recognized as wisdom. Perhaps from the perspective of a normal run-of-the-mill person it could be seen as that.

The Heart Sutra:
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

https://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html

TheRainsSeason
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by TheRainsSeason » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:51 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:10 pm
Huineng distinguished only between enlightened and unenlightened:

'With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)

Baizhang Huaihai spoke of three stages:

'If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.
Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.
Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.'

(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 30-31)

Dogen did not differentiate stages:

'The view that practice and realization are not one is skewed outside of the Way. In the Buddha Dharma practice and realization are one and the same. This is the practise of realization, and so from the beginning practice is the whole body of original Awakening.'
(Bendowa, p 13)

Shengyan taught about three stages:

Stage 1:
To balance the development of body and mind in order to attain mental and physical health. Various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting, and reclining are used.

Stage 2:
From the sense of the small "I" to the large "I." When you practice the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, for example, huatou or silent illumination, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small "I" until it coincides with time and space. The small "I" merges into the entire universe, forming a unity.

Stage 3:
From the large "I" to no "I." Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan.

(Three Stages of Chan Meditation; see more here)
Thank you. This is something for me to study.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:18 pm

I am no zennie and my answer/question will show that. However, aren't in zen koans used to "check" progress during talks with the teacher?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Astus
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Astus » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:18 pm
However, aren't in zen koans used to "check" progress during talks with the teacher?
The Japanese Rinzai school has various levels in koan training, yes.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:54 am

TheRainsSeason wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:12 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 am
Anyone of us can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore, but there is personal progress of wisdom even for enlightened people?
In my current understanding, wisdom does not seem to be recognized as wisdom. Perhaps from the perspective of a normal run-of-the-mill person it could be seen as that.

The Heart Sutra:
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.

https://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html
Wisdom could be understood as correspondence such as when teapot (skandhas) is transcended, the space inside corresponds with the dharma realms.
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:57 am

Never give up no matter what obstacles is progress.
Make personal vows.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Simon E. » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:28 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 am
Anyone of us can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore, but there is personal progress of wisdom even for enlightened people?
You know this......how?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:37 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:28 am
LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:02 am
Anyone of us can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore, but there is personal progress of wisdom even for enlightened people?
You know this......how?
First: is this a friendly question?
Make personal vows.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Simon E. » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:02 pm

It’s a genuine question.
You state “anyone can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore”..
My question is simple. How do you know this?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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LastLegend
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:14 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:02 pm
It’s a genuine question.
You state “anyone can make a big leap at any time straight to the other shore”..
My question is simple. How do you know this?
Why do I have to believe that you are genuine?
Make personal vows.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Simon E. » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:17 pm

You dont. It’s the question that’s genuine. It would be whomever asked it.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 pm

TheRainsSeason wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:36 pm
New to the forum here.

I don't know much about Zen. I wondered if Zen had a kind of Progress of Insight similar to the Theravada tradition?
I am surprised about Astus' post because so far a view of "progress" on the path and Zen appeared to be incompatible to me. And the views of Theravada appeared to be pretty naive in comparison to my notion of Zen.

Now after having read Astus' post my notion of Zen bursts like a bubble. This isn't bad because I never have been a Zen practitioner.

I have to acknowledge that since there are also teachers in Zen there arises the necessity that those teacher say something to students ... so whatever they teach them will be a deviation ... deviation from what? from the remainder of the bursted bubble ... :shrug:

TheRainsSeason
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by TheRainsSeason » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:52 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 pm
TheRainsSeason wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:36 pm
New to the forum here.

I don't know much about Zen. I wondered if Zen had a kind of Progress of Insight similar to the Theravada tradition?
I am surprised about Astus' post because so far a view of "progress" on the path and Zen appeared to be incompatible to me. And the views of Theravada appeared to be pretty naive in comparison to my notion of Zen.

Now after having read Astus' post my notion of Zen bursts like a bubble. This isn't bad because I never have been a Zen practitioner.

I have to acknowledge that since there are also teachers in Zen there arises the necessity that those teacher say something to students ... so whatever they teach them will be a deviation ... deviation from what? from the remainder of the bursted bubble ... :shrug:
Yes, for what substance would there be in a glob of foam?

;-)

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Astus
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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by Astus » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:20 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 pm
there arises the necessity that those teacher say something to students
'The roots of delusion are deep. They’re difficult to cut off and uproot. So [the Buddha] established expedient means to grab your attention. These are like showing yellow leaves to a crying child, who imagines they’re gold and thus stops crying. You act as though you’re in a shop where someone sells a hundred goods made from gold and jade, but you’re trying to weigh each item. So you say that Shitou has a real gold shop? Well in my shop there’s a wide range of goods! If someone comes looking for mouse turds then I give him some. If someone comes looking for real gold then I give it to him.'
(Yangshan Huiji, in Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 187)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions

Post by White Lotus » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:54 pm

Stage 3:
From the large "I" to no "I." Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan.
Thank you Astus! As long as self is seen there is attachment and abiding. no self, no problem. that having been said is still a concept a view. it is still an understanding. something to hold onto.

forget it all and just live... that misses the mark too. it is sublime: whatever I say misses it and yet I am free to play with words. its all just a game.

all that remains is awareness... and that too is falling into the weeds. awareness comes and goes. so where can we rest?

I don't know anywhere to rest other than in awareness and forgetfulness.


kind regards, Tom x :anjali:


times a changing,
seen thus I see all things,
no point in worrying,
the grass will grown as it does.
give me your hand and I will give
you a glove.
hope it fits neatly. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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