Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

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Aemilius
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Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Aemilius » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:48 am

"And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen of the long distant past who attained the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and made it a habitat, all of them did so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who in the far distant future will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them will do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who at present are able to attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

Wherefore, Ánanda, train yourself this way: "I will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make a habitat of that."

http://buddhasutra.com/files/a_little_s ... tiness.htm

Suñña sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Another version of Cula-suññata sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

SteRo
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by SteRo » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:05 pm

The Buddha does not teach a view in MN 121. He teaches the approach to the signless door to liberation via the jhanas. And he also teaches the impermanence of that and other meditative attainments.
It's hilarious to project a philosophical view on that.

avatamsaka3
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by avatamsaka3 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am

Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?

smcj
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am

dolphin_color wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am
Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?
Maybe...
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by SteRo » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:07 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am
dolphin_color wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am
Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?
Maybe...
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.
No, not at all. Only this translator "makes it a habitat". But even that expression just means to "abide in that absorption". I don't think Nagarjuna would object that one may abide in a meditative absorption.

How on earth would you meditate on emptiness if "emptiness" would be "just how phenomena abide"??? Don't you think that an absorption in emptiness is the result of meditating on emptiness?

Other translators:
Chalmer has "develop and dwell in pure and ultimate emptiness"
Horner has "entering on the utterly purified and incomparably highest emptiness, and abiding in it"
Ñanamoli has "enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness"
Thanissaro has "enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed"
Last edited by SteRo on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:10 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am
dolphin_color wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am
Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?
Maybe...
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.
Where do Shentong teachings or teachers say emptiness is "something beyond appearances"?

Phenomena don't abide at all.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by LastLegend » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:22 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am
dolphin_color wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am
Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?
Maybe...
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong. Nagarjuna would definitely not approve.

Or at least I think that’s what the issue is.
It’s up to people how they want to fry it as long as there isn’t mistaken or attachment?
Make personal vows.

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Astus
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Astus » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:18 am

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am
Aemilius wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:48 am
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong.
That is a nice mistranslation of ‘parisuddhaṃ paramānuttaraṃ suññataṃ upasampajja viharanti’.

Nanamoli & Bodhi:
'enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness'

Sujato:
'enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness'

Emptiness is practically a synonym for no-self, so that abiding in emptiness means not conceiving anything as 'I am that' or 'that is mine'.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Aemilius » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:22 am

dolphin_color wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 am
Why do you think it's teaching a shentong view?
Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso says in his book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness that Shentong teaching is that the nonconceptual wisdom mind is empty of anything other than itself. Which I think is very similar to what the Buddha is saying in this Short Sutra on Emptiness.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by LastLegend » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:04 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:18 am
smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:54 am
Aemilius wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:48 am
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong.
That is a nice mistranslation of ‘parisuddhaṃ paramānuttaraṃ suññataṃ upasampajja viharanti’.

Nanamoli & Bodhi:
'enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness'

Sujato:
'enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness'

Emptiness is practically a synonym for no-self, so that abiding in emptiness means not conceiving anything as 'I am that' or 'that is mine'.
How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?
Make personal vows.

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Astus
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Astus » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:12 am

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:04 am
How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?
Please elaborate. What is there to reconcile?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by LastLegend » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:16 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:12 am
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:04 am
How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?
Please elaborate. What is there to reconcile?
Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?
Make personal vows.

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Astus
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Astus » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:16 am
Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?
It's merely a word. When one believes that the word signifies a real entity, that is the mistaken belief in a self.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Simon E.
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:45 am

Aemilius wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:48 am
"And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen of the long distant past who attained the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and made it a habitat, all of them did so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who in the far distant future will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them will do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

And, Ánanda, all those Shamen or Brahmen who at present are able to attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat, all of them do so by attaining this same highest surpassing purity of emptiness and making it a habitat.

Wherefore, Ánanda, train yourself this way: "I will attain the highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make a habitat of that."

http://buddhasutra.com/files/a_little_s ... tiness.htm

Suñña sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Another version of Cula-suññata sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Before discussing a Vajrayana concept with you Aemilius, it would be useful to know who your Vajrayana teacher is in order to be able to respond appropriately. You are of course free to decline to answer for any reason. But I am curious, with which Vajrayana teacher have you taken Refuge?
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Tata1 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:30 pm

Emptiness is not a vajrayana concept. It goes all the way down to shravakayana.
And i dont see what hes teacher has to do with anything lol

Simon E.
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:26 pm

Shentong is a Vajrayana concept. And he does not want to disclose who is shaping his views, that is his choice.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

smcj
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:50 pm

Before discussing a Vajrayana concept with you Aemilius, it would be useful to know who your Vajrayana teacher is in order to be able to respond appropriately. You are of course free to decline to answer for any reason. But I am curious, with which Vajrayana teacher have you taken Refuge?
I’m not Aemilius, but I do see he has already quoted Khenpo Tsultrim in this thread.
Aemilius wrote: Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso says in his book Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness that Shentong teaching is that the nonconceptual wisdom mind is empty of anything other than itself. Which I think is very similar to what the Buddha is saying in this Short Sutra on Emptiness.
This thread is about interpreting a Shravakayana Sutta. Personally I think the other translations offered for that Sutta addressed that issue. But if people want to continue getting worked up over it that okay with me. It’s better than talking politics.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Simon E.
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:58 pm

Anyone can quote anyone. And on Buddhist Forums frequently do. That is rather my point.
I don’t doubt that Khenpo Tsultrim has a nuanced understanding of Shentong.
And more importantly, his understanding forms part of his relationship with his lineage of teachers.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

smcj
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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:47 pm

Personally I’ve only had one teacher suggest I study Shentong. However he passed away before I followed through on his recommendation. So I can’t say I’ve been tutored on the subject.

After I’d started exploring the subject I tried to ask several Karma Kagyu khenpos about it. None of them was willing to discuss the topic with me. So I am entirely book based and self taught. Since I’m content being a dilettante I can live with that. But I must admit I’d like for a khenpo to engage me on the subject.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra

Post by LastLegend » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:58 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:22 am
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:16 am
Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?
It's merely a word. When one believes that the word signifies a real entity, that is the mistaken belief in a self.
😄

You’ve gotten one part of emptiness!
Make personal vows.

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