Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Simon E.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Simon E. »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:51 pm I have found my interest in new Tantric practices waning over time. Prior to taking teachings from ChNN I received a lot of initiations, and generally took attending them quite seriously. Since this time I have the reoccurring feeling that I have enough of them, and find it harder to get all ginned up about them. I do one Sadhana regularly and that's about it.

I have an opportunity coming up to receive an empowerment I should probably get, but at the time, I don't feel particularly inspired. I will be attending the retreat where it's being offered regardless.

How does one handle this?
On one side I look at development stage as the guru yoga of, "I'm trying to understand stage," and the completion stage as the, "Now I understand stage."

Tantric methods will always be useful for realized masters because they have understood bochichitta and do whatever beings require at the moment.

One the other side, having a waning interest in systems and routines can be a sign of realizing the sameness of all phenomena and point to insight and wisdom.

Or it could mean you are feeling discouraged by lack of progress, in that case, use this instant to review the pith introductions that there is nothing accomplished and no one to accomplish it in the space lacking time. See the point of natural awareness and then you are enjoying the fruit of all these method.
:good:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
tingdzin
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by tingdzin »

Ah yes, but Malcolm already pointed out that the path of guru connection seems to be the one for you, and I have zero quarrel with that. As I said, I was speaking to others, as this problem is actually quite common. Many people do not have the connection with a teacher as close as yours seems to be.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:08 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:00 pm I think, in a lot of ways everything starts out on a superficial level. Even deeply superficial!
When we are new to the practice, even when we are really into it, we haven’t really related to it or absorbed it into many life situations. It’s more like a new diversion.

After a while, we get tired of the diversion and then we are at a fork in the road: do we go do something else, or keep working with the practice? Very often, it ends up being one and then the other. We stop devoting much time to practice for now, but then all the reasons of samsara that drew us to the practice are still there, and we go back, but this time, the practice seems different. It’s not as shallow. It’s a bit deeper. The symbolism takes on new meaning. It’s more flexible.

After that, it’s pretty rare to walk away from it completely. It becomes really ingrained. Practicing dharma is practicing dharma, and not practicing is also practicing dharma. Everything, even not practice, becomes practice.
Some people do, after decades, suddenly decide it wasn’t for them at all.
.
.
.

This isn't so much about not practicing, not making time for it etc. I do a surprisingly good job of that given my other responsibilities (job, kids, wife, family, all my worldly hobbies and fun distractions lol), It's mainly that at one time Tantra attracted me, the more bells and whistles the better. These days I find all the bells and whistles a little exhausting, and can't seem to generate the enthusiasm around them that I see in others. Other than my weekly group practice, which has grown into something deep, I look at all the work it takes to "get it right" with Tantric practices and I just feel tired.

It may swing back the other way one day, this is just where I'm at, and was wondering if others have been here.
i heard our teacher (ChNN) said at least twice during teachings that "a dzogchen practitioners never scapes". try your best to integrate all into your practice

often i say to my friends that traveling is such a waste of time because people have the same emotions and problems everywhere, in the same way it doesn't matter much wich dharma one practices and where, after 2 or 3, having this or that additional initiation doesn't make sense to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Simon E. »

Nor me. It’s not as though we haven’t enough on our plates without piling them higher. My suspicion is that we are tempted to collect wangs when the honeymoon period wears off..
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Terma
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Terma »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:21 pm Nor me. It’s not as though we haven’t enough on our plates without piling them higher. My suspicion is that we are tempted to collect wangs when the honeymoon period wears off..
In my own experience I have found this to be the opposite. We are all often very eager entering the Vajrayana and the idea of taking empowerment's can have a bit of mistique to it, or someone says "you gotta get this empowerment from so-and-so" and things like that.

For me, over the last few years I have managed to get the necessary empowerment's for the cycle that I have decided to devote my practice to so for me, there is little need for more than that. Now, I will only take empowerment's from my 2 teachers since I know I have a strong connection with them and I'm not so interested in taking samaya with lot's of teachers at this point.

But I do see a lot of people that may seem to "collect" empowerment's these days. While on the one hand there is a great deal of purification involved in doing so and maybe some do it to (re)establish a connection with a certain teacher, at this point I feel that less is better, and to concentrate on receiving Wang's for what I intend to practice and not just "as a blessing" as some might say.

This may have been a little off topic however, so my apologies for that.
Simon E.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Simon E. »

It’s an interesting phenomenon which I have observed over the years. You might be correct about what drives it.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Mantrik
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Mantrik »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm It’s an interesting phenomenon which I have observed over the years. You might be correct about what drives it.
There seem to be several motivations.
One is to make contact with a particular Lama and lineage, with 'holy being' possibly being in the mix.
Another is to enable a person to perform a practice they desire.
Another is just to receive blessings.

Dzogchen Rinpoche once remarked to us that in India a small number of people would turn up for teachings, but huge numbers for empowerments. The way he described it was like a family day out with a picnic....... because they wanted the blessings.

Underlying motivation may range from selfish acquisition to universal compassion, but I think in the West there is a 'FOMO' motivation which has become a major driving force - 'Fear Of Missing Out'.

It is easy to generate, and I've seen it working in a cult situation, but can be triggered as easily as an event being mentioned in a discussion here on DW.

Afterwards, it is like the initial buzz of having the latest phone we have been told will change our lives, when we realise we still need a signal and a purpose, and our other previous phones would have been just as useful.

Fomo Dharma. Don't miss out! Book now for True Enlightenment from a Properly Holy Being! :tongue:
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:08 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:00 pm I think, in a lot of ways everything starts out on a superficial level. Even deeply superficial!
When we are new to the practice, even when we are really into it, we haven’t really related to it or absorbed it into many life situations. It’s more like a new diversion.

After a while, we get tired of the diversion and then we are at a fork in the road: do we go do something else, or keep working with the practice? Very often, it ends up being one and then the other. We stop devoting much time to practice for now, but then all the reasons of samsara that drew us to the practice are still there, and we go back, but this time, the practice seems different. It’s not as shallow. It’s a bit deeper. The symbolism takes on new meaning. It’s more flexible.

After that, it’s pretty rare to walk away from it completely. It becomes really ingrained. Practicing dharma is practicing dharma, and not practicing is also practicing dharma. Everything, even not practice, becomes practice.
Some people do, after decades, suddenly decide it wasn’t for them at all.
.
.
.

This isn't so much about not practicing, not making time for it etc. I do a surprisingly good job of that given my other responsibilities (job, kids, wife, family, all my worldly hobbies and fun distractions lol), It's mainly that at one time Tantra attracted me, the more bells and whistles the better. These days I find all the bells and whistles a little exhausting, and can't seem to generate the enthusiasm around them that I see in others. Other than my weekly group practice, which has grown into something deep, I look at all the work it takes to "get it right" with Tantric practices and I just feel tired.

It may swing back the other way one day, this is just where I'm at, and was wondering if others have been here.
i heard our teacher (ChNN) said at least twice during teachings that "a dzogchen practitioners never scapes". try your best to integrate all into your practice

often i say to my friends that traveling is such a waste of time because people have the same emotions and problems everywhere, in the same way it doesn't matter much wich dharma one practices and where, after 2 or 3, having this or that additional initiation doesn't make sense to me.
I find wandering the world to be like a main practice. Sure all sentient beings have 5 poisons, but I get to confront mine far more clearly this way. And there is no other way to survive as a wanderer than to mind one's 37 bodhisattva practices. Oh It was Master NoOneEver that said, "Buddhas stay home all their lives."
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:21 pm Nor me. It’s not as though we haven’t enough on our plates without piling them higher. My suspicion is that we are tempted to collect wangs when the honeymoon period wears off..
The masters aspire to meet numerous inititiations to maximize connections with beings in future lives. It is not like notches on your bed post.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:31 am
Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm It’s an interesting phenomenon which I have observed over the years. You might be correct about what drives it.
There seem to be several motivations.
One is to make contact with a particular Lama and lineage, with 'holy being' possibly being in the mix.
Another is to enable a person to perform a practice they desire.
Another is just to receive blessings.

Dzogchen Rinpoche once remarked to us that in India a small number of people would turn up for teachings, but huge numbers for empowerments. The way he described it was like a family day out with a picnic....... because they wanted the blessings.

Underlying motivation may range from selfish acquisition to universal compassion, but I think in the West there is a 'FOMO' motivation which has become a major driving force - 'Fear Of Missing Out'.

It is easy to generate, and I've seen it working in a cult situation, but can be triggered as easily as an event being mentioned in a discussion here on DW.

Afterwards, it is like the initial buzz of having the latest phone we have been told will change our lives, when we realise we still need a signal and a purpose, and our other previous phones would have been just as useful.

Fomo Dharma. Don't miss out! Book now for True Enlightenment from a Properly Holy Being! :tongue:
Anyone seriously practicing in a lineage is a holy being.

Some so called.Dzogchen practitioners might be mistaking simplicity for ordinary. A cow wearing a melong is still a cow.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:21 pm Nor me. It’s not as though we haven’t enough on our plates without piling them higher. My suspicion is that we are tempted to collect wangs when the honeymoon period wears off..
Or maybe you are taking your amazing good fortune for granted and when those wangs are not being given anywhere you can access, you will understand.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

Everything is interdependent. Tantra from a lineage is extremely rare and precious. Having a lama and a group is too. Once we look sideways at these things and scoff the die are cast and the inevitable loss has commenced. So stop that. And pray to the lamas from a far.
Simon E.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Simon E. »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:31 am
Simon E. wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm It’s an interesting phenomenon which I have observed over the years. You might be correct about what drives it.
There seem to be several motivations.
One is to make contact with a particular Lama and lineage, with 'holy being' possibly being in the mix.
Another is to enable a person to perform a practice they desire.
Another is just to receive blessings.

Dzogchen Rinpoche once remarked to us that in India a small number of people would turn up for teachings, but huge numbers for empowerments. The way he described it was like a family day out with a picnic....... because they wanted the blessings.

Underlying motivation may range from selfish acquisition to universal compassion, but I think in the West there is a 'FOMO' motivation which has become a major driving force - 'Fear Of Missing Out'.

It is easy to generate, and I've seen it working in a cult situation, but can be triggered as easily as an event being mentioned in a discussion here on DW.

Afterwards, it is like the initial buzz of having the latest phone we have been told will change our lives, when we realise we still need a signal and a purpose, and our other previous phones would have been just as useful.

Fomo Dharma. Don't miss out! Book now for True Enlightenment from a Properly Holy Being! :tongue:
:smile:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:26 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:42 pm

i heard our teacher (ChNN) said at least twice during teachings that "a dzogchen practitioners never scapes". try your best to integrate all into your practice

often i say to my friends that traveling is such a waste of time because people have the same emotions and problems everywhere, in the same way it doesn't matter much wich dharma one practices and where, after 2 or 3, having this or that additional initiation doesn't make sense to me.
I find wandering the world to be like a main practice. Sure all sentient beings have 5 poisons, but I get to confront mine far more clearly this way. And there is no other way to survive as a wanderer than to mind one's 37 bodhisattva practices. Oh It was Master NoOneEver that said, "Buddhas stay home all their lives."
buddhas played the "ran away" from their home's conditions, kingdom responsabilities, womans, kids, politicians, etc. we don't need to do that. that's the renounciation way.

regarding the mahayana, vimalakirti's pov is that if one can actually recognize emptiness in normal life one do actually can realize emptiness wich is the main point. it has nothing to do with the disciplines and practices.

there is nothing to be left behind.

sorry i got a bit our of topic hehe
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:26 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:42 pm

i heard our teacher (ChNN) said at least twice during teachings that "a dzogchen practitioners never scapes". try your best to integrate all into your practice

often i say to my friends that traveling is such a waste of time because people have the same emotions and problems everywhere, in the same way it doesn't matter much wich dharma one practices and where, after 2 or 3, having this or that additional initiation doesn't make sense to me.
I find wandering the world to be like a main practice. Sure all sentient beings have 5 poisons, but I get to confront mine far more clearly this way. And there is no other way to survive as a wanderer than to mind one's 37 bodhisattva practices. Oh It was Master NoOneEver that said, "Buddhas stay home all their lives."
buddhas played the "ran away" from their home's conditions, kingdom responsabilities, womans, kids, politicians, etc. we don't need to do that. that's the renounciation way.

regarding the mahayana, vimalakirti's pov is that if one can actually recognize emptiness in normal life one do actually can realize emptiness wich is the main point. it has nothing to do with the disciplines and practices.

there is nothing to be left behind.

sorry i got a bit our of topic hehe
It like having a stationary bike in your living room and thinking you work out.
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by tingdzin »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:47 pm verything is interdependent. Tantra from a lineage is extremely rare and precious. Having a lama and a group is too. Once we look sideways at these things and scoff the dice are cast and the inevitable loss has commenced. So stop that. And pray to the lamas from a far.
Wow! Well said.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:41 pm It like having a stationary bike in your living room and thinking you work out.
i find it is more dificult to live normal life actually..
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:41 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:47 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:26 pm

I find wandering the world to be like a main practice. Sure all sentient beings have 5 poisons, but I get to confront mine far more clearly this way. And there is no other way to survive as a wanderer than to mind one's 37 bodhisattva practices. Oh It was Master NoOneEver that said, "Buddhas stay home all their lives."
buddhas played the "ran away" from their home's conditions, kingdom responsabilities, womans, kids, politicians, etc. we don't need to do that. that's the renounciation way.

regarding the mahayana, vimalakirti's pov is that if one can actually recognize emptiness in normal life one do actually can realize emptiness wich is the main point. it has nothing to do with the disciplines and practices.

there is nothing to be left behind.

sorry i got a bit our of topic hehe
It like having a stationary bike in your living room and thinking you work out.

IDK to use the fitness analogy, plenty of people spend all their time acquiring a peloton or bowflex, maybe even a nice set of freeweights or kettlebells and never actually spend any time with them. So it's one thing to talk about the precious opportunity to receive empowerment, quite another to treat the empowerment as something other than another cool shiny Dharma object that'll git you swole, and just becomes another part of your Fitness Museum.

Anyway the other part is a pointless debate, we should practice according to our circumstances and do the best we can to take advantage of our precious human existence to practice Dharma. That just won't look the same for everyone, so it's better to examine motivation than external circumstance, in my opinion.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
Crazywisdom
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Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice

Post by Crazywisdom »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:34 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:41 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:47 pm

buddhas played the "ran away" from their home's conditions, kingdom responsabilities, womans, kids, politicians, etc. we don't need to do that. that's the renounciation way.

regarding the mahayana, vimalakirti's pov is that if one can actually recognize emptiness in normal life one do actually can realize emptiness wich is the main point. it has nothing to do with the disciplines and practices.

there is nothing to be left behind.

sorry i got a bit our of topic hehe
It like having a stationary bike in your living room and thinking you work out.

IDK to use the fitness analogy, plenty of people spend all their time acquiring a peloton or bowflex, maybe even a nice set of freeweights or kettlebells and never actually spend any time with them. So it's one thing to talk about the precious opportunity to receive empowerment, quite another to treat the empowerment as something other than another cool shiny Dharma object that'll git you swole, and just becomes another part of your Fitness Museum.

Anyway the other part is a pointless debate, we should practice according to our circumstances and do the best we can to take advantage of our precious human existence to practice Dharma. That just won't look the same for everyone, so it's better to examine motivation than external circumstance, in my opinion.
Some circumstances are under our control. To the extent we can encourage lamaa and receive a lineage we should and joyfully. At sime point the survival of dharma may depend in you and you want to be ready. Wandering has taught me this. I am thousanda of miles away from the nearest teacher. All I have to rely on is in my head.
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