Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

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npr
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Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 2:01 pm

Hello to you,
A question Please

What is Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’ ?

Is the ‘One Mind’ considered as The Absolute ? Oneness with the Buddha is Oneness with the Absolute? or is it that **Everything** is Emptiness of self-being ?
If the reply applies to all Mahayana sects, kindly indicate

Thank you.

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 26, 2020 2:09 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:01 pm
Hello to you,
A question Please

What is Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’ ?

Is the ‘One Mind’ considered as The Absolute ? Oneness with the Buddha is Oneness with the Absolute? or is it that **Everything** is Emptiness of self-being ?
If the reply applies to all Mahayana sects, kindly indicate

Thank you.
Please define, "The Absolute."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

npr
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 pm

That which exists in spite of anything.

( The reason I asked here is, that a while ago, I saw in this book t.ly/wEcv some references to this term )

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Dan74
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Dan74 » Tue May 26, 2020 3:06 pm

I have no idea about "Zen's stand". From my experience though, Zen teachers avoid taking positions and speaking in generalities. This is referred to as "the thicket of views."

The reason being that the Absolute is a conceptual proliferation. So throw it out along with all the other garbage. Or if it really means something to you, show it to me right now from the depth of your heart. Most of these concepts only hold us down.

But this is just proliferation from an extremely mediocre Zen student (that's not some cryptic false modesty, it's what it is).
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue May 26, 2020 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 26, 2020 3:11 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 pm
That which exists in spite of anything.
That's still not clear, but it sounds like Self which is a Wrong View in Buddhist teachings.

Sometimes the word "Absolute" is used in English translations of Buddhist texts to refer to the "Absolute Truth", but this is not a reference to something that exists. Absolute Truth refers to the real nature of things, which in Mahayana Buddhist teachings is said to be empty of intrinsic existence.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm

Thank you Queequeg.
My question is answered.

If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice

:namaste:

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm
Thank you Queequeg.
My question is answered.

If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice

:namaste:
You have to call it something, but the very issue is when you call it something it becomes ‘it’ and ‘you.’
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm

Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 3:39 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm
Thank you Queequeg.
My question is answered.

If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice

:namaste:
You have to call it something, but the very issue is when you call it something it becomes ‘it’ and ‘you.’

Interesting angle. Thank you.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.
If it’s empty as in no thing, how can it depend on anything? What still sees it as anything is skandhas being consciousness first, intention, perceptions. It’s not nihilism because another name is Mahaprajna (enlightened itself). If it’s seen as duality, then that a distinction of consciousness.

The issue here is without explaining it’s not understood but explaining it becomes object of delusion.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue May 26, 2020 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Astus » Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm
If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice
What translation? Could you please give some refernces?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 3:57 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm
If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice
What translation? Could you please give some refernces?
Here https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.105228 / https://terebess.hu/zen/Huangpo.pdf
(text version, abit ruined : t.ly/7pax )

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 26, 2020 4:06 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:25 pm
If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was, that can be nice
What translation? Could you please give some refernces?
Blofeld
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 26, 2020 4:12 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?
It depends on causes and conditions.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Tue May 26, 2020 5:00 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.
What describes it is the issue of skandhas consciousness taking the lead. The story of Mahakayaspa (sp?) smiled to the flower that was raised. Transcending this distinction of consciousness is enlightenment, but it’s not easy. It’s an individual job not the job of Buddhas or teachers.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

npr
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 5:04 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.
If it’s empty as in no thing, how can it depend on anything? What still sees it as anything is skandhas being consciousness first, intention, perceptions. It’s not nihilism because another name is Mahaprajna (enlightened itself). If it’s seen as duality, then that a distinction of consciousness.

The issue here is without explaining it’s not understood but explaining it becomes object of delusion.
--------------------

Empty of inherent existence means things are dependent on other factors

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/sujato Dependent Origination.

http://promienie.net/images/dharma/book ... makakarika[/b].pdf ( CTL F 'dependent' )

Analysis of conditions "Whatever comes into being dependent on another"

https://www.dalailama.com/news/2014/tea ... kir-ladakh

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:00 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.
What describes it is the issue of skandhas consciousness taking the lead. The story of Mahakayaspa (sp?) smiled to the flower that was raised. Transcending this distinction of consciousness is enlightenment, but it’s not easy.
What causes and conditions? that is the question

Thank you.

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by seeker242 » Tue May 26, 2020 5:11 pm

Buddha, Buddha Nature, absolute, true self, one mind, Nirvana, etc, etc

Why does there need to be any difference?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

npr
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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by npr » Tue May 26, 2020 5:14 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:11 pm
Buddha, Buddha Nature, absolute, true self, one mind, Nirvana, etc, etc

Why does there need to be any difference?
:namaste:

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Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’

Post by LastLegend » Tue May 26, 2020 5:17 pm

npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:06 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:00 pm
npr wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:36 pm
Since the One-Mind is empty of intrinsic existence, what does it depend on ?

Thank you.
What describes it is the issue of skandhas consciousness taking the lead. The story of Mahakayaspa (sp?) smiled to the flower that was raised. Transcending this distinction of consciousness is enlightenment, but it’s not easy.
What causes and conditions? that is the question

Thank you.
Cause of suffering is desire someone said that the other day totally extinguished cause of suffering and extinguished delusional perceptions will transcend samsara, but this kills the seeds with sentient beings (connection) and it’s no longer an aspiration to become a Buddha, but that’s an individual choice.

I don’t know what causes and conditions are. :lol:
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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