Dzogchen and other traditions

White Lotus
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by White Lotus » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:00 pm

I am Braham, Shiva and Vishnu, Indira and Ishvara, I am the fundamental nature of all things, the only nature, i have gone beyond all kinds of atman. i am emptiness. if you take refuge in me you will be dissapointed. walk on with my insignificant blessing.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

daelm
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by daelm » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:25 pm

White Lotus wrote:I am Braham, Shiva and Vishnu, Indira and Ishvara, I am the fundamental nature of all things, the only nature, i have gone beyond all kinds of atman. i am emptiness. if you take refuge in me you will be dissapointed. walk on with my insignificant blessing.

best wishes, Tom.

good to know.

thanks.

dakini_boi
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by dakini_boi » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:00 am

Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Why am I bringing this up? Because of the following central questions:

a.) Where does Dzogchen practised by a person who is neither Buddhist, nor accepts the doctrine of anatman or pratityasamutpada (dependent origination) lead to according to traditional textual sources and living oral tradition? Do such people simply get stuck in formless blissful realms or are they simply wasting their time or do they go to Vajra hells....?
At best, rebirth in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

N
Why in this case, a nirmanakaya buddhafield as opposed to dharmakaya or sambhogakaya?

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:10 am

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Why am I bringing this up? Because of the following central questions:

a.) Where does Dzogchen practised by a person who is neither Buddhist, nor accepts the doctrine of anatman or pratityasamutpada (dependent origination) lead to according to traditional textual sources and living oral tradition? Do such people simply get stuck in formless blissful realms or are they simply wasting their time or do they go to Vajra hells....?
At best, rebirth in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

N
Why in this case, a nirmanakaya buddhafield as opposed to dharmakaya or sambhogakaya?
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.

N
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.
Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.
Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY

People below the path of seeing. Regular people.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:52 am

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.
Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY

People below the path of seeing. Regular people.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Paul
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by Paul » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)
How do the Dzogchen and Mahamudra path(s) fit with these framework?
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Post by Malcolm » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)
There are various schemes -- for the mahamudra scheme you can look in the mahamudra threads here. For Dzogchen, third vision of thögal = path of seeing.



How do the Dzogchen and Mahamudra path(s) fit with these framework?
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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