Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Research of emptiness and $3.98 will get you a 711 Big Gulp, alwayson, or a reasonable facsimile. Do you by chance mean experience or realizaiton of emptiness?
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I was being sarcastical. And yes I know, that's not a word!Namdrol wrote:A) There is no such a thing as non-dualityajax wrote:Not to suggest that there is no such thing as non-duality, no, of course not. The existence of non-duality is beyond questioning.
B) The existene of non-duality is not beyond question in any sense.
N
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I guess you didn't see the earlier post which proves that non-duality is part of Buddhism.alwayson wrote:There is NO such thing as nonduality in Buddhism, including Zen.
Kyosan wrote:Non-dualism is part of Buddhism. For instance, here is a quote from an important Mahayana Buddhist scripturefrom chapter 2 of the Sutra of Innummerable Meanings
all laws were originally, will be, and are in themselves void in nature and form; They are Neither great nor small, Neither appearing nor disappearing, Neither fixed or movable, and neither advancing nor retreating; they are non dualistic, just emptiness. All living beings, however, discriminate falsely: "It is this" or "it is that", and "It is advantageous" or "It is disadvantageous"; they entertain evil thoughts, make various evil karmas, and thus transmigrate within the six realms of existence; and they suffer all manner of miseries, and cannot escape from there during infinite kotis of kalpas.
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
If you ask "Is X rational?" without any further specification then that could be interpreted to mean anything fromajax wrote:The poll performed it's function quite well and the instructions are clear and unambiguous.zangskar wrote:An ambiguous question + binary answering option = bad survey. I mean no offense, but I do think you should be open to the possibility that the difficulty in communicating could just as well be at your own side as with a general population of Western zen practitioners.
-Given some goal (whicht was not specified) is X the rational way to reach that goal?
-Is X intended/supposed to be rational?
-Does X actually have some internal, logically consistent core?
-Even if there might not (currently) exist an authoritative logically consistent corpus to X, could such a corpus exist without substantially changing X?
and more
All these are valid interpretations of "is X rational?" when no further specifications are given.
If you wanted to know what people think you would have explained what exactly you mean by "rational", and then asked,
"given constraints a,b,c with the goal z is x rational?"
Asking if Zen is rational, yes or no, with no further specifications, is not much more precise than asking if Obama is rational, yes or no. If you want to know what people's subconscious associations are driving them to vote next time then that poll would have some valuable information. But if you want to know what people actually THINK about it, then it's worthless.
Lars
- DarwidHalim
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Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I can see their problem actually.ajax wrote:Not to suggest that there is no such thing as non-duality, no, of course not. The existence of non-duality is beyond questioning. I sometimes wonder though, maybe some have drunk the non-dual Kool-Aid a bit too deeply. For example, on a Zen Buddhist forum I created a poll which asked the simple question of whether Zen was rational or not. I gave explicit instructions that participants simply choose which yes or no answer felt more immediately right to them, and that they could go-off intellectually as they pleased in following comments. It was as thought they could not read the words I had posted.
Are some Zen practitioners in the West so attached to the ideas and culture of Zen that they cannot even entertain the notion of expressing how they feel in an nonintellectual or undogmatic way?
See the poll here: http://zenforuminternational.org/viewto ... =64&t=7231
As you know reality has no and yes. It is beyond yes and no. We can only experience it, but cannot utter it by words, bcause reality is beyond words.
When you ask whether Zen is rational or not, even me I cannot answer.
What is Zen? Zen is simply a symbol which refer to the reality, which can only be experienced and cannot be utter by words.
So Zen is inexpressible.
How can you ask something which is inexpressible?
Zen is beyond yes and no. Beyond question.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are getting at is:ajax wrote: I've just been thinking lately that some Zen institutions in the West may be placing so much emphasis on emptiness that they've lost sight of Buddhism, and that's what might account for the many scandals in Western Zen that we've been hearing about.
Do Buddhists who purposefully engage in scandalous (misconduct) behavior rely on the idea of nonduality (hence no ultimate right or wrong) in order to rationalize their actions?
can we rephrase your question this way?
If this is the question, then I think for the most part, no.
I think the real culprit is samsara, which I liken to an insidious poison ivy vine that creeps into everything it can. Even great teachers are susceptible to its penetrating tendrils and no one is completely safe from it until they are a Buddha (or high bodhisattva).
I think that those who engage in misconduct generally put their precepts "on hold" and may deny or secretly acknowledge that they are really doing anything wrong, but I don't think they use nonduality as an excuse.
Ultimately, the desire for pleasure is at the root of dualistic clinging.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
[T]he real condition of existence appears in different forms, either pure or impure, but its real nature does not change. This is why it is said that it is nondual. "Nondual" is in fact a term that is used in dzogchen a great deal[.]alwayson wrote: There is NO such thing as nonduality in Buddhism, including Zen.
Dzogchen: the Self-Perfected State, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Transcendental knowledge which is free from the dualism of being and non-being, belongs to the Bodhisattvas and takes its rise when they thoroughly examine things of imagelessness, see into the state of no-birth and no-annihilation, and realise egolessness at the stage of Tathagatahood.
Lankavatara Sutra
[W]hen one abides in Mind-only, beyond which there is no external world, dualism ceases[.]
Lankavatara Sutra
But [my teaching] is not that which falls into the dualism of being and non-being. Mine, Mahamati, goes beyond the dualism of being and non-being; has nothing to do with birth, abiding, and destruction; is neither existent nor non-existent.
Lankavatara Sutra
You can't ape arrogance, son. You can only earn it. Then it'll be the real thing. Good luck with that.
Last edited by Karma Dondrup Tashi on Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
- DarwidHalim
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Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Buddism indeed show us nonduality. You should read genkojoan.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:[T]he real condition of existence appears in different forms, either pure or impure, but its real nature does not change. This is why it is said that it is nondual. "Nondual" is in fact a term that is used in dzogchen a great deal[.]alwayson wrote: There is NO such thing as nonduality in Buddhism, including Zen.
Dzogchen: the Self-Perfected State, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
You can't ape arrogance, son. You can only earn it. Then it'll be the real thing. Good luck with that.
I personally cannot find any difference between dzochgen and zen meditation (skikantaza, I forget how to write it)
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
The term non-dual (gnyis med, or advaya) is used frequently in Buddhist texts. The term non-duality (gnyis med nyid, advaita) is virtually never used, showing up only one time in the entire Kengyur, in a single passage in the Kalacakra tantra (hooray for a text searchable Tibetan canon!); and nineteen times in the Tengyur, the translations of Indian commentaries.Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:[T]he real condition of existence appears in different forms, either pure or impure, but its real nature does not change. This is why it is said that it is nondual. "Nondual" is in fact a term that is used in dzogchen a great deal[.]alwayson wrote: There is NO such thing as nonduality in Buddhism, including Zen.
Dzogchen: the Self-Perfected State, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
You can't ape arrogance, son. You can only earn it. Then it'll be the real thing. Good luck with that.
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Save your typing Namdrol.
*Edited for intolerance. This is the Zen sub forum please bear that in mind before hitting the enter key*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
*Edited for intolerance. This is the Zen sub forum please bear that in mind before hitting the enter key*
I don't consider that Buddhism. Sorry.DarwidHalim wrote: Buddism indeed show us nonduality. You should read genkojoan.
Crappy english translation do not prove shit. Dependent Origination is NOT nonduality.Kyosan wrote: I guess you didn't see the earlier post which proves that non-duality is part of Buddhism.
Click Here:ajax wrote:Research of emptiness and $3.98 will get you a 711 Big Gulp, alwayson, or a reasonable facsimile. Do you by chance mean experience or realizaiton of emptiness?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by rose on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: intolerance
Reason: intolerance
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I stand corrected. Reading the Wikipedia article is the realization of emptiness. Who knew!alwayson wrote:Click Here:ajax wrote:Research of emptiness and $3.98 will get you a 711 Big Gulp, alwayson, or a reasonable facsimile. Do you by chance mean experience or realizaiton of emptiness?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
*Edited for inappropriate language*ajax wrote: I stand corrected. Reading the Wikipedia article is the realization of emptiness. Who knew!
Exactly.
Now you know, that you need to actually study what Buddhism says, since even ******** Hindus and Christians can meditate etc.
Just study some Madhyamaka, and you are all set.
Last edited by rose on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: inappropriate language
Reason: inappropriate language
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
What do you think is the distinction between non-dual and non-duality?Namdrol wrote: The term non-dual (gnyis med, or advaya) is used frequently in Buddhist texts. The term non-duality (gnyis med nyid, advaita) is virtually never used, showing up only one time in the entire Kengyur, in a single passage in the Kalacakra tantra
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Some Vajrayana practitioners are like that, but certainly not all of them. It's my impression that most of the Vajrayana practitioners on this board are respectful of other forms of Buddhism including Zen.alwayson wrote:If you are making a poll whether Zen is rational or irrational, Vajrayana practitioners are going to say irrational.
Because Vajrayana practitioners hate Zen.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5341" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buddhism is broader than you think and includes many paths. There are many ways to reach the other shore and there are many ways to describe the other shore.
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
The first refers to an absence of extremes. The second is advocating a philosophical position.Jinzang wrote:What do you think is the distinction between non-dual and non-duality?Namdrol wrote: The term non-dual (gnyis med, or advaya) is used frequently in Buddhist texts. The term non-duality (gnyis med nyid, advaita) is virtually never used, showing up only one time in the entire Kengyur, in a single passage in the Kalacakra tantra
N
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I think you are confusing the two polls. The poll being discussed in this topic did give the following "specifications"zangskar wrote:If you ask "Is X rational?" without any further specification then that could be interpreted to mean anything fromajax wrote:The poll performed it's function quite well and the instructions are clear and unambiguous.zangskar wrote:An ambiguous question + binary answering option = bad survey. I mean no offense, but I do think you should be open to the possibility that the difficulty in communicating could just as well be at your own side as with a general population of Western zen practitioners.
-Given some goal (whicht was not specified) is X the rational way to reach that goal?
-Is X intended/supposed to be rational?
-Does X actually have some internal, logically consistent core?
-Even if there might not (currently) exist an authoritative logically consistent corpus to X, could such a corpus exist without substantially changing X?
and more
All these are valid interpretations of "is X rational?" when no further specifications are given.
If you wanted to know what people think you would have explained what exactly you mean by "rational", and then asked,
"given constraints a,b,c with the goal z is x rational?"
Asking if Zen is rational, yes or no, with no further specifications, is not much more precise than asking if Obama is rational, yes or no. If you want to know what people's subconscious associations are driving them to vote next time then that poll would have some valuable information. But if you want to know what people actually THINK about it, then it's worthless.
Lars
Please go by your gut reaction and choose yes or no, depending on whichever feels immediately the most right to you. If you feel that neither choice is appropriate you can comment on that while still choosing one or the other.
Thank you for your participation.
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
The poll does not ask voters to express Zen. It would be nice though if they did.DarwidHalim wrote:What is Zen? Zen is simply a symbol which refer to the reality, which can only be experienced and cannot be utter by words.
So Zen is inexpressible.
How can you ask something which is inexpressible?
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Well, no, I meant it more like I wrote above, that some Zen institutions in the West may be placing too much emphasis on emptiness and not enough on a more full expression of Buddhism. A lot of sitting and devaluation of discrimination and moral reasoning make Zen master a bad boy, essentially.PadmaVonSamba wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but I think what you are getting at is:ajax wrote: I've just been thinking lately that some Zen institutions in the West may be placing so much emphasis on emptiness that they've lost sight of Buddhism, and that's what might account for the many scandals in Western Zen that we've been hearing about.
Do Buddhists who purposefully engage in scandalous (misconduct) behavior rely on the idea of nonduality (hence no ultimate right or wrong) in order to rationalize their actions?
can we rephrase your question this way?
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Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
Oh look Wikipedia says that there is nondualism in Buddhism.alwayson wrote:Click Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism ... sm_general" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
- Karma Dondrup Tashi
- Posts: 1715
- Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Re: Zen and the dogma of non-duality
I don't think anyone here is saying Zen is Avdaita.Namdrol wrote:The first refers to an absence of extremes. The second is advocating a philosophical position.
N
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.