Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
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Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I don't know if anyone else has seen this or posted on it. It's very tragic. The long retreats need proper supervision.
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http://buddhism.about.com/b/2012/05/02/ ... rizona.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Let's not consider this a common situation considering Michael Roach and Co. are involved.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
- mindyourmind
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Mr. G wrote:Let's not consider this a common situation considering Michael Roach and Co. are involved.
That's a bit harsh.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Pretty sad situation.
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I don't mean to sound crass, but Roach's group is not your traditional or standard Tibetan Buddhist organization. But yes, it is quite sad.mindyourmind wrote:Mr. G wrote:Let's not consider this a common situation considering Michael Roach and Co. are involved.
That's a bit harsh.
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Well, having read Michael Roach's statement linked to from the buddhism.about.com site I am not sure how much can be led directly at his door for this tragedy. They do seem to have acted reasonably in the bizarre events that seem to have led up to the death of Ian Thorson. Having said that though, this was not by any means a conventional 3 year retreat as would be recognized by nearly any other mainstream Tibetan Buddhist organization, I think. And, based only on the videos I have seen of her on the internet, Christie McNally does not appear to me to be the kind of person who could lead a 3 year retreat (or be indeed called "Lama"). I have met several Western leaders (including two women) of successful 3 year retreats and they all give off a much more grounded and altogether less flaky vibe than she does. But maybe without knowing her personally that judgement is unfair. I think perhaps too Michael Roach might do well to consider whether he has the skills to run a 3 year retreat on his own.Mr. G wrote: I don't mean to sound crass, but Roach's group is not your traditional or standard Tibetan Buddhist organization. But yes, it is quite sad.
I will be remembering all concerned in my prayers as I'm sure everyone else is too.
This is not the wrong life.
- Dechen Norbu
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
It's a very sad and perfectly avoidable situation that comes as the result of crazy people doing crazy things under the guise of Dharma practice. The worst part about this, I fear, is that somehow they believe they are actually practicing Dharma instead of fast traveling down insanity lane.
I can only wish that people open their eyes and step out of their fantasies, learning how to recognize a proper Dharma teacher and a Sangha conducive to Dharma practice.
It's disturbing to realize how people can destroy their lives due to very poor choices that, if correctly made, could have helped them being so much happier.
It's very saddening.
I can only wish that people open their eyes and step out of their fantasies, learning how to recognize a proper Dharma teacher and a Sangha conducive to Dharma practice.
It's disturbing to realize how people can destroy their lives due to very poor choices that, if correctly made, could have helped them being so much happier.
It's very saddening.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I saw this yesterday when looking at that blog linked to the Ole thread...
This is very sad and unfortunate. But, frankly, didn't we see some sort of trainwreck coming with regard to these folks?
This is very sad and unfortunate. But, frankly, didn't we see some sort of trainwreck coming with regard to these folks?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I have not really followed the story with Michael Roach and Christie McNally in recent years. I remember when Roach came on the scene first being excited that at last there were now Westerners with a full traditional academic training and not just ones like Ole who claimed some supernatural authority for their role. But then he went off on this self-indulgent sidetrack and brought this girl along with him into lala land. I thought it a pity - at the time - but I never thought that his group was likely to see a tragedy like this. The weird posting she made from retreat (how does that work?) shows she was in a very strange state of mind - I hope she recovers. It does prove that the Mara of Spiritual Pride (dga' brod bdud) is very real and very vicious.conebeckham wrote:This is very sad and unfortunate. But, frankly, didn't we see some sort of trainwreck coming with regard to these folks?
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I just hope this is enough to persuade others to stay away from this group.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Ancillary to this very sad situation, why is it that crazy seems to gravitate to Arizona? It's not such a long time since the James Ray sweat lodge debacle.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
They didn't know how to live in the desert but perhaps thought they did, they may have wanted to get through a retreat period and thought they could, they apparently didn't know how to gauge their hydration. Being in the southern desert, even in a place they might have thought was safe, is immediately life challenging for anyone, including people who grew up there and know how to live there, - anyone without adequate shelter and resources. It takes some planning and then you always have to plan for the worst case, which can still happen irrespective of planning.
If he died as a result of environmental factors then this is just the Christopher McCandless story revisited.
Kirt
If he died as a result of environmental factors then this is just the Christopher McCandless story revisited.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
What darkness and craziness, all very sad.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
It's an odd phenomena.Karma Dorje wrote:Ancillary to this very sad situation, why is it that crazy seems to gravitate to Arizona? It's not such a long time since the James Ray sweat lodge debacle.
I live in AZ and it is a beautiful and dare I say powerful place.
It's my feeling that people are drawn to the natural beauty and power but do not know how to deal with it properly leading to tragic outcomes such as this, the sweat lodge thing, and the AZ political landscape.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
It's WAY cheaper than California. So it's easier to try things like Arcosanti, which contributes to the alternative lifestyle vibe over time.
Because of Sedona and the pop-culture buildup around Native American spirituality... well, AZ is mixed up in that. If you're inspired to wander around with "feathers and bells and a book of Indian lore," what better place than the home of the Navajo & Hopi nations?
Tucson is a good place to get coffee, even though it's also a good place to get your car stolen.
And Arizona's pretty on the whole. Food's better in New Mexico.
Because of Sedona and the pop-culture buildup around Native American spirituality... well, AZ is mixed up in that. If you're inspired to wander around with "feathers and bells and a book of Indian lore," what better place than the home of the Navajo & Hopi nations?
Tucson is a good place to get coffee, even though it's also a good place to get your car stolen.
And Arizona's pretty on the whole. Food's better in New Mexico.
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
I get a horrible feeling this may have been at least partly caused by this group's weird view of emptiness - that if you imagine hard enough and have good enough karma & devotion you can change the things you experience to something else that you want/need. This whole group has been a tragedy for a long time.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Garchen Rinpoche has a great center in AZ and many people have done long term retreats there successfully. It is the difference of have highly skilled Gurus on-site guiding those on retreat.Karma Dorje wrote:Ancillary to this very sad situation, why is it that crazy seems to gravitate to Arizona? It's not such a long time since the James Ray sweat lodge debacle.
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
this shit is getting to be Jim Jones tier. I actually had Christie pegged as the saner of the two of them. guess not.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25
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Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Aw, come on. It's not Jim Jones or anything like it. Jim Jones convinced his 900 followers to commit suicide and murdered those who wouldn't. Roach and McNally are clearly deluded about their understanding of Dharma and what it takes to practice in the high desert but they are not psychotic mass murderers. This is a tragedy of human vanity and stupidity.gad rgyangs wrote:this shit is getting to be Jim Jones tier. I actually had Christie pegged as the saner of the two of them. guess not.
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Knotty Veneer wrote:This is a tragedy of human vanity and stupidity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde