''...Household life is crowded, a realm of dust, while going forth is the open air...'' [Pabbaja Sutta]

Saichō's monastic reforms never rejected the Vinaya. The idea was that first you trained as a bodhisattva renunciate, and then you would receive the Vinaya precepts some years later. The latter might have been a formality and largely unnecessary in his eyes since the Brahma Net Sūtra includes the essence of the Vinaya (celibacy, no killing, no stealing, etc...). The system for Vinaya ordinations in his time seems to have been somewhat corrupt as well, hence his inclination to do away with it.Seishin wrote:Japanese monks take the 10 major and 48 minor Bodhisattva Precepts, not the Vinaya. This was initiated for various reasons by Seicho who was the creator of the Tendai Tradition. From what I understand (little admittedly) celibacy was part of the vows, which was changed at a later date during the Meiji restoration (I think) so that monks were allowed to marry, drink alcohol and eat meat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibutsu_kishaku" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Japan the monks are still referred to as monks and hold the same status and respect as those with vinaya vows. Japanese schools in the west tend to prefer to use the word "priest" to try to save confusion with the celibate monks.
This subject is hotly debated on this board and elsewhere.
Note: Someone with a better understanding of Japanese history might be able to correct the above.![]()
Gassho,
Seishin
No... they are not trying to invigorate Buddhism at home, same like Chinese or Tibetans do not travel to Japan to invigorate their Bhuddhism.. for most Japanese people Thai, Tibetan or any other Buddhism is rather kind of alien. If there is any interest is same like in any other foreign phenomenon... there is not much perception of other traditions ion Japan.JKhedrup wrote:
So I wonder if some Japanese are looking to the broader Buddhist world for inspiration to re-invigorate the Buddhism at home.
Well Japan is so bad it spoiled even KoreaRaksha wrote:In Korea Taego priests often conceal the fact that they are married, and avoid wearing the particular robes which distinguish them from their celibate Chogye counterparts, so there is clearly a stigma there, although this may be partly due to having an association with Japan.
ExactlyRaksha wrote:'Seeing bad qualities in others indicates that your own acts have been impure. It is just like seeing your own dirty face in a mirror.' [Jamgon Kongtrul]
'There is no more serious fault either in spiritual or worldly ethics than trying to find the faults of others and defaming them.' [Patrul]
The local FPMT centre here is frequented by many working professionals, and the empowerments organised by the Sakyapas and Nyingmapas I've been to, not to mention ChNN's teachings here, have all been attended by people from many different backgrounds. Theravada seems to be enjoying popularity as well, but I don't know too much about that, and I hope it is not mainly due to Thai amulets.JKhedrup wrote:I am glad that things in Taiwan are thriving, it is good to know there is an outpost in the Chinese world where Buddhism can be preserved.
I have heard that in Singapore and Hong Kong, for example, it is very fashionable for the young people to be baptised into the Christian religion and that Evangelical Protestantism is a growing phenomena, is this accurate?
One of my teachers, the current abbot of Sera Jey, journeys to Japan every year to visit one of the largest Shingon monasteries and to give initiations into various Secret Mantra practices like Yamantaka and Green Tara for example, which are always well attended. Groups of people from Japan also came to Sera to receive these teachings. I also understand that there are several study groups connected with Ajahn Chah's Theravada lineage that are very popular in Japan. Fo Guang Shan also has a presence there.
So I wonder if some Japanese are looking to the broader Buddhist world for inspiration to re-invigorate the Buddhism at home.
Ignoring the loads of young volunteers, I was a bit surprised to discover that the lay Chan retreats at FSG, itself the most popular programme there, were dominated by younger people. Given the demands of a Chan retreat I think it's fair to say such participants aren't just casually interested.Huseng wrote:Buddhism is actually on the decline in much of Asia as youth drift towards secularism. Statistically this is true, too. Fewer people in places like Japan, Singapore and Korea self-identify as Buddhist. Here in Taiwan things appear to be thriving, though the bulk of the membership is made up of older ladies and I don't see many young people looking to sign up.
Hi,Hickersonia wrote:I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what it is exactly.
Ven. Heng Sure is a former Abbot of the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, Ukiah, North California, and now spends his time between the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery (just across from the Berkeley High School) and a center on the Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia. Like any standard Chinese monastic tradition, it's a celibate tradition.Rev. Heng Sure came up in discussion in another thread of mine and has sparked a bit of research on him and the tradition with which he seems to be associated. Just to start this off, however, I'm asking for informational purposes and not because I necessarily need the answers to conform to what I'm already aware of, although I of course can only speak of that which I am already aware and understand, so please don't take my inquiry the wrong way.
I had to read this a couple of time before I got the gist, because I first was confused and thought that Ven. Heng Sure had some guidelines on sexual relationships between teachers and students, which I would have found incredibly surprising. As above, his monastic tradition is a celibate one, but at the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery, they do have some non-resident teachers who are lay people. But, this tradition simply won't go for sexual relationships between teacher and student, even for lay people, as far as I know.My question goes back to "basics" as I understand them, the 8 Precepts in particular. I've found some musical compositions authored by Heng Sure and, in the course of my searches, found a Zen Center (not necessarily affiliated with Heng Sure) that has a segment of it's Ethical Guidelines page devoted to relationships of a sexual nature between Teacher and student, placing rules on such relations (as opposed to an outright ban of it, as my understanding of the 8 Precepts would expect with those referred to as "Sangha").
I'll leave commenting on the Japanese lineage Zen traditions for now, but just to clarify that Ven. Heng Sure is from a Chinese tradition, though very much established in the USA, Australia and some other locations. These Chinese traditions follow the Dharmagupta Vinaya, which is a basic parallel with the Theravada Vinaya. The Japanese traditions do not.I'm not familiar with Zen -- I'm coming at this question from a mostly Theravada knowledge-base (something I'm on a mission to expand this year). Do Zen monks / Priests (I've seen them referred to in this way) follow the same Precepts and Vinaya rules as those of the Theravada or is there a complete and distinct on it's own version of this in Zen?
As above, fairly big differences in this regard between Chinese and Japanese, for example.Further, does any such distinction apply across the board amongst all East Asian Mahayana?
No problemmo.Thank you very much for your information as I broaden by admittedly limited knowledge.
During the Cultural Revolution, and at some locations for a while after this, your statement is correct. But nowadays, the vast majority of monastics are in fact monastics. Gross generalizations like this are not a good habit, because you are in effect accusing a lot of monastics of breaking a parajika offense. Not nice.Raksha wrote:Chinese Chan monks are celibate (except for mainland Chinese 'monks', who aren't actually monks at all).
In fact, the vast majority of so-called "Chan orders" are celibate. The only exceptions that I can think of being two strains in the West, which, relatively speaking, are very new and minor compared to China / Taiwan / etc. area.Sara H wrote: Many Chan orders are celibate, ...
Well, we had to turn down a few hundred applicants to an event this summer at FGS, to keep it to around 1000 in total; not to mention the YAD conference just before that; the undergrad program in Buddhist Studies here at FGU is full each year, and we just extended another MA stream plus PhD, all full, too. And this year, our Buddhist Club on campus has more new students than previous years.Anders wrote:Ignoring the loads of young volunteers, I was a bit surprised to discover that the lay Chan retreats at FSG, itself the most popular programme there, were dominated by younger people. Given the demands of a Chan retreat I think it's fair to say such participants aren't just casually interested.Huseng wrote:Buddhism is actually on the decline in much of Asia as youth drift towards secularism. Statistically this is true, too. Fewer people in places like Japan, Singapore and Korea self-identify as Buddhist. Here in Taiwan things appear to be thriving, though the bulk of the membership is made up of older ladies and I don't see many young people looking to sign up.
So I am not sure that no-youth is the case across the board.
JKhedrup wrote:I am glad that things in Taiwan are thriving, it is good to know there is an outpost in the Chinese world where Buddhism can be preserved.
I have heard that in Singapore and Hong Kong, for example, it is very fashionable for the young people to be baptised into the Christian religion and that Evangelical Protestantism is a growing phenomena, is this accurate?
I met a few Japanese bhikkhu who ordained under a Sri Lankan master. They're genuine bhikkhus and live as such. I made them lunch a few times. Really nice fellows. However, a few bhikkhus doesn't make much of an impact. Shingon traditions are generally interested in Tibetan Buddhism, though that's perhaps largely limited to scholars and a few practitioners. Foreign Buddhist traditions in Japan are largely insignificant.One of my teachers, the current abbot of Sera Jey, journeys to Japan every year to visit one of the largest Shingon monasteries and to give initiations into various Secret Mantra practices like Yamantaka and Green Tara for example, which are always well attended. Groups of people from Japan also came to Sera to receive these teachings. I also understand that there are several study groups connected with Ajahn Chah's Theravada lineage that are very popular in Japan. Fo Guang Shan also has a presence there.
At present the Japanese population has generally very little interest in Buddhism. You call a priest when someone dies. Other than that maybe you visit a nice old temple in Kyoto, and that's about it.So I wonder if some Japanese are looking to the broader Buddhist world for inspiration to re-invigorate the Buddhism at home.
How many of those youth will remain committed to Buddhism once they start working full-time in the grind of the Taiwanese workplace? That's what I've wondered. Once you start working you might be doing 10 hours a day, up to six days a week. Having a family on top of that leaves little time for practice or involvement in any kind of organization. The younger generation both men and women are in the workforce, too.Huifeng wrote: Well, we had to turn down a few hundred applicants to an event this summer at FGS, to keep it to around 1000 in total; not to mention the YAD conference just before that; the undergrad program in Buddhist Studies here at FGU is full each year, and we just extended another MA stream plus PhD, all full, too. And this year, our Buddhist Club on campus has more new students than previous years.
Depends where one is at, as Anders says.
~~ Huifeng
I know there are youth involved (there are plenty of youth volunteers and practitioners at DDM too), but I wonder if they will remain so once they start working full-time. University is a time for exploration and students have the free time to do so, but the daily grind of 10 hour work days plus family life take up a working adult's time. In Taiwan you just don't work 9am-5pm. Like Japan you stay awhile longer into the evening otherwise it looks bad. In the economic downturn people work even longer for fear of being sacked.Anders wrote: Ignoring the loads of young volunteers, I was a bit surprised to discover that the lay Chan retreats at FSG, itself the most popular programme there, were dominated by younger people. Given the demands of a Chan retreat I think it's fair to say such participants aren't just casually interested.
So I am not sure that no-youth is the case across the board.
Huseng wrote:I know there are youth involved (there are plenty of youth volunteers and practitioners at DDM too), but I wonder if they will remain so once they start working full-time. University is a time for exploration and students have the free time to do so, but the daily grind of 10 hour work days plus family life take up a working adult's time. In Taiwan you just don't work 9am-5pm. Like Japan you stay awhile longer into the evening otherwise it looks bad. In the economic downturn people work even longer for fear of being sacked.Anders wrote: Ignoring the loads of young volunteers, I was a bit surprised to discover that the lay Chan retreats at FSG, itself the most popular programme there, were dominated by younger people. Given the demands of a Chan retreat I think it's fair to say such participants aren't just casually interested.
So I am not sure that no-youth is the case across the board.
You know, I've been sitting with this, what I should say in reply to you,In Reply to Matylda
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests