Parinirvana without remainder

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jhanapeacock
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Parinirvana without remainder

Post by jhanapeacock » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm

What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.

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Josef
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Josef » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:30 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.
It's the same as the with/without remainder breakdown in Mahayana. Basically, the differentiation between arhats and buddhas.
There is a good section on this in A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Ricky
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 pm

You supposedly attain something called rainbow body in dzogchen. In "hinayana" there's no such thing except for permanent cessation.

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Malcolm
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.
The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 pm
jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.
The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.
Arhats have contaminated aggregates?

crazy-man
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by crazy-man » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:37 pm

What the Buddha experienced at 35 was called sa-upādisesa-nibbāna - nirvana with remainder. What he experienced at 80 was called anupādisesa-nibbāna - nirvana without remainder:
“dvemā, bhikkhave, nibbānadhātuyo. katame dve? saupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu, anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu.

There are these two, monks, elements of nibbāna. What two? The element of nibbāna with remainder and the element of nibbāna without remainder.
-- Iti. 44

The difference is that after the former, there is still sequences of physical and mental formations that continue as a consequence of the birth of the being and have to work themselves out, which they do at the latter, signifying an end to all such physical and mental formations.
The actual experience of nirvana during the former (which can last from a few moments up to seven days) and the latter (which, due to there being no remaining sequence of formations and no craving to create new ones, is permanent) is the same.
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... arinirvana
44. The Nibbāna-element
This was said by the Lord…
“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.
“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”
These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.
Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44
3.5.10. Is the Buddha real?
The king said: ‘Is there such a person as the Buddha, Nāgasena?’
‘Yes.’
‘Can he then, Nāgasena, be pointed out as being here or there?’
‘The Blessed One, O king, has passed away by that kind of passing away in which nothing remains which could tend to the formation of another
individual. It is not possible to point out the Blessed One as being here or there.’
‘Give me an illustration.’
‘Now what do you think, O king? When there is a great body of fire blazing, is it possible to point out any one flame that has gone out, that it is here or there?’
‘No, Sir. That flame has ceased, it has vanished.’
‘Just so, great king, has the Blessed One passed away by that kind of passing away in which no root remains for the formation of another individual. The Blessed One has come to an end, and it cannot be pointed out of him, that he is here or there. But in the body of his doctrine he can, O king, be pointed out. For the doctrine was preached by the Blessed One?’
‘Very good, Nāgasena!’
https://suttacentral.net/en/mil3.5.10

The Outward Form Of Nirvāṇa
https://suttacentral.net/en/mil6.3.10

The Time Of Nirvana
https://suttacentral.net/en/mil6.3.11

The Place Of Nirvana
https://suttacentral.net/en/mil6.3.12

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Malcolm
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:16 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 pm
jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.
The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.
Arhats have contaminated aggregates?

They do not have contaminated aggregates, but they have nonafflictive obscurations, and are required to enter the bodhisattva path in order to achieve buddhahood, according to Mahāyāna sources.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:16 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 pm


The difference is that the hinayāna nirvana without remainders is a faux nirvana, it is merely a samādhi of cessation after an arhat dies. The nirvana without remainder in Atiyoga is rainbow body where there are no remaining contaminated aggregates.
Arhats have contaminated aggregates?

They do not have contaminated aggregates, but they have nonafflictive obscurations, and are required to enter the bodhisattva path in order to achieve buddhahood, according to Mahāyāna sources.
Gotcha.

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Jyoti
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:30 am

jhanapeacock wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:10 pm
What´s the difference between parinirvana without remainder between hinayana and dzogchen? Conceptually speaking.
The mechanics is the same for both where is there is a common object (nirvana) to be abide in, it is a diseased state, but the buddha can choose to abide in it as a personal choice, just as the four states of meditative absorption, including the absorptions of the formless, are optional to buddhism, but the awaken ones can choose to exercise them, and may exit the state at any time. This disease of cessation has no impact on the buddha but it is a disease of the arahants who assume the state as the final stage of wholesomeness (true happiness).

According to my post in 2011 in talk.religion.buddhism:

> When the illusion and vanity of self is experienced, niroda (nirvana) is an
> inevitable direction, not an object of desire / volitional impulse.

This lead to what the perfect-awareness sutra called the disease of cessation.

"The fourth is disease of cessation, if there is a person, saying: 'I now forever terminate all afflictions', since the body-mind is emptied of existence, how much more is the skandas and illusory phenomena? Striving toward cessation of all phenomena due to the desire for perfect-awareness, since the nature of the perfect-awareness, is not the form of cessation, thus said it is named as disease".

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Jyoti
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Jyoti » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 pm
You supposedly attain something called rainbow body in dzogchen. In "hinayana" there's no such thing except for permanent cessation.
The rainbow body is what the buddha get when abiding in the intelligence/jnana and not on the base (nirvana). It is termed the nonabiding nirvana, or nirvana with reminder:

"“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left." (44. The Nibbāna-element)

Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.

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Malcolm
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:19 pm

Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.
This is completely wrong.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

jhanapeacock
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by jhanapeacock » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:19 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.
This is completely wrong.
Why is it wrong, sir?

fckw
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by fckw » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 am

Where is the popcorn eating emoji when you need one?

Simon E.
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:28 pm

:popcorn:

There ya go.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Malcolm
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Re: Parinirvana without remainder

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:16 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:31 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:19 pm
Jyoti wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:08 pm

Basically, the rainbow body is received after death of the physical body, because the function of mind/jnana is not absorb into the absolute nature (nirvana), thus it has to continue to function, and the rainbow body is manifestation aspect of this mind/jnana.
This is completely wrong.
Why is it wrong, sir?
Because Jyoti's view is completely dualistic.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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