How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

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PeterC
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by PeterC » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:57 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:46 am
PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:49 am
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:37 pm
5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so
Doctrines do not define the Sangha, precepts do. So someone would actually have to reconstruct the Vinaya in order to cause a split. And that has not really happened, ever.
Not sure what you mean by that

Sanghabheda is defined pretty well in the sutras. I can dig out the references if you’d like. It is, as they say, a thing.

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Astus
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Astus » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:44 pm

PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:57 am
Sanghabheda is defined pretty well in the sutras. I can dig out the references if you’d like. It is, as they say, a thing.
If you have a different definition, please provide it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Grigoris
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:09 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:37 pm
It is unlikely that anyone of us here has committed the five heinous crimes.
I bet that in our infinite rebirths in samsara all of us here have committed all of them, at least once.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm

PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:49 am
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:37 pm

5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.

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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by WeiHan » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:09 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:37 pm
It is unlikely that anyone of us here has committed the five heinous crimes.
I bet that in our infinite rebirths in samsara all of us here have committed all of them, at least once.
The point was that the karmic results for these crimes that we have committed in the past have definitely all ripened and has exhausted in the past since these crimes has immediate karmic effect.

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Grigoris
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:20 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm
The point was that the karmic results for these crimes that we have committed in the past have definitely all ripened and has exhausted in the past since these crimes has immediate karmic effect.
Source?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

WeiHan
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by WeiHan » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:20 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm
The point was that the karmic results for these crimes that we have committed in the past have definitely all ripened and has exhausted in the past since these crimes has immediate karmic effect.
Source?
The five heinous crimes in chinese has the meaning of approximately "Five sins of no-gaps". "No gap" because the suffering has no gap, the suffering will be continuous, the time between committing these sins and ripening effect in hell has no gap meaning one is reborn in hell immediately after that life.

The Ksitigarbha Ten Wheel Sutra mentions about this "immediate" effect with no gap lives in between. Tibetan commentaries go further to say that not even the bardo is experienced after one's death.

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Astus
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Astus » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm
PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:49 am
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:37 pm
5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.
Vasubandhu writes about the schism that causes birth in Avici for a kalpa:

"Where does schism take place?
100b. Elsewhere.
Not where the Tathagata is found Schism is impossible where the Master is to be found, for the Tathagata cannot be conquered and his word is full of authority."

(AKB 4.100, vol 2, p 683)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Malcolm
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:21 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm
PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:49 am

It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.
Vasubandhu writes about the schism that causes birth in Avici for a kalpa:

"Where does schism take place?
100b. Elsewhere.
Not where the Tathagata is found Schism is impossible where the Master is to be found, for the Tathagata cannot be conquered and his word is full of authority."

(AKB 4.100, vol 2, p 683)
This means not in his direct presence. The person who went to Avici for causing a schism is Devadatta.

PeterC
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by PeterC » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:22 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:21 am
Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm

No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.
Vasubandhu writes about the schism that causes birth in Avici for a kalpa:

"Where does schism take place?
100b. Elsewhere.
Not where the Tathagata is found Schism is impossible where the Master is to be found, for the Tathagata cannot be conquered and his word is full of authority."

(AKB 4.100, vol 2, p 683)
This means not in his direct presence. The person who went to Avici for causing a schism is Devadatta.
Malcolm - could you elaborate on HHST’s comments - was he saying that Devadatta was the only ever case of sanghabheda resulting in the schismatic going to Avici hell? The literal reading of the sutra definition of this would suggest that schism can happen at any time, but doesn’t differentiate between schisms that do and don’t qualify as sins of immediate retribution

PeterC
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by PeterC » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:24 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:44 pm
PeterC wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:57 am
Sanghabheda is defined pretty well in the sutras. I can dig out the references if you’d like. It is, as they say, a thing.
If you have a different definition, please provide it.
Decent summary of the relevant citations here:
https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html

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Astus
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Astus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:45 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:24 am
Decent summary of the relevant citations here: https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html
Apart from the Parikuppa Sutta (AN 5.129), that's all Vinaya proceedings. There is also the Sanghabheda Sutta (Iti 18) not mentioned in that article.

As for a not Vinaya but Sutra definition, here's a Mahayana take:

"And what is meant by disrupting the sangha? When the assembly of different characteristics that form the skandhas is utterly destroyed, this is what is meant by disrupting the sangha."
(Lankavatara Sutra, ch 57, tr Red Pine)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by Astus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:49 am

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:38 pm
How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
From the Platform Sutra (ch 6, BDK ed, p 52-53):

"I have a formless verse, which, if you are able to recite it, will cause you upon hearing these words to melt away in a single instant the delusions and transgressions of numerous eons. The verse goes:

Deluded people cultivate blessings but do not cultivate the Way,
Saying only that to cultivate blessings is the Way.
The blessings from charity and offerings may be unlimited,
But the three poisons are originally created in the mind.

Attempting to cultivate blessings and wanting to extinguish their transgressions,
They may attain blessings in later lives, but their transgressions will still exist.
They should simply eradicate the conditions of transgression within their minds:
This is called true repentance within the self-nature.

Suddenly enlightened to the true transgression of the Mahayana,
Eradicating the false and practicing the correct, they are without transgression.
Studying the Way is to always contemplate the self-nature:
This is to be identical with all the buddhas.

Our patriarchs have transmitted only this sudden teaching,
And you should all vow to see the nature and be identical to them.
If you wish to see the dharmakāya in the future,
Transcend the characteristics of the dharmas and wash them out of your minds.

Make an effort to see for yourself, don’t be despondent!
Later, in a single moment, you will suddenly cut off [your thoughts, thus] ending them forever.
If you would be enlightened to the Mahayana and see the nature,
Reverentially hold your palms together [in the anjalimudrā] and seek it in utter sincerity."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

WeiHan
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by WeiHan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:57 am

While we are at the topic of retribution in hell and five heinous crimes, it is probably useful to take note that five heinous crimes aren't the only karmic actions that can results in hell rebirth. Generally, killing and hatred is the cause for rebirth in hell. For example, in the Ksitigarbha Sutra, the Buddha told a story of a woman rebirth in hell for fondness in eating the roe of a type of fish.So, I thought it may be quite dangerous if you have an expensive taste for kavia.

PeterC
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Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Post by PeterC » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:45 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:24 am
Decent summary of the relevant citations here: https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html
Apart from the Parikuppa Sutta (AN 5.129), that's all Vinaya proceedings. There is also the Sanghabheda Sutta (Iti 18) not mentioned in that article.

As for a not Vinaya but Sutra definition, here's a Mahayana take:

"And what is meant by disrupting the sangha? When the assembly of different characteristics that form the skandhas is utterly destroyed, this is what is meant by disrupting the sangha."
(Lankavatara Sutra, ch 57, tr Red Pine)
Iirc, the relating of Devadatta’s actions in the sanghabheda sutta is entirely consistent with the definition on that link.

I’m struggling to see how the definition in your citation would function as an operative definition of that offence. The definition of the other four offences are pretty straightforward and objective - kill, spill blood, etc. - it would be inconsistent for the fifth to be defined in such a way. So I would argue for a more straightforward interpretation of the fifth offence - that it refers to the ordained sangha and is defined in vinaya.

Unless, of course, it refers to creation of a schism where one didn’t previously exist - ie it can only apply to Devadatta. Hence I’m curious as to the comment by Malcolm on HHST’s interpretation.

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