So, you read pirated books?

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Pero
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Pero »

I believe this was discussed before (although probably more dharma publishing related), doubt anyone will change their opinion but anyway:

EU withheld a study that shows piracy doesn't hurt sales
https://justcanthelpwriting.com/tag/book-piracy/ wrote:The biggest challenge facing a new author isn’t piracy; it’s obscurity.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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tkp67
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by tkp67 »

I put a conscious effort to respect all IP many years ago. Please do not take this as a claim to perfect behavior, I will never make a declaration of sainthood.

That said I did based on subliminal suspicions that in my mind today I would word as:

Doesn't everything one filters through one's senses and minds as well as the karma that delivers it there defile or adorn the one's being accordingly?

Could this be one reason for the difficulty to propagate truth in the degenerate age? Could this be an impediment to our own enlightenment?

Not that impediments can't be causes or overcome but is the degenerate age such that ignorance perpetuates them faster than rational minds can dispel them through reason?

Am I delusional for resisting against the way of others because they haven't asked themselves the same? Or am I delusional for wondering without evoking causation and observing outcome?

One of those subtle changes I would not have recognized if you asked me what has changed over the past decade or so in your behavior since practicing.

Big thing to know is before that I rationalized that it was fine on all other criteria simply because I could.
humble.student
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by humble.student »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:57 pm
humble.student wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:15 pm Because we are dealing with only a handful of conglomerates that own both publishing houses and said journals, that's how. Scholars - and librarians - have been raging against this for years.
This sounds very foreign to me, and I'm surrounded by scholars who are publishing or perishing. Sources I could investigate for myself?
I'll get back to you tomorrow. It is worth looking into, for sure.

As I say, academic publishing is a different beast than mainstream, and with a couple of exceptions, publishers of Dharma material are invariably going to be very small outfits. I don't think that they are going to be affected in the same way by piracy (in this instance) and I don't think there is a one-size fits all fix to this.

As far as Buddhist texts is concerned, there is a fair amount of overlap between academia and publishing, which makes things even more complex.
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Queequeg
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Queequeg »

Pero wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:01 pm I believe this was discussed before (although probably more dharma publishing related), doubt anyone will change their opinion but anyway:

EU withheld a study that shows piracy doesn't hurt sales
https://justcanthelpwriting.com/tag/book-piracy/ wrote:The biggest challenge facing a new author isn’t piracy; it’s obscurity.
That study does not say that piracy does not affect book sales. It says its evidence is inconclusive.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Nemo
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Nemo »

Nemo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:33 pm Copyright was originally a way to make textbooks affordable for schools. It limited the maximum prices publishers could charge.

You don't see the problem with knowledge being profit based? This is most clearly shown in scientific journals. Where the publisher takes 100% of the thousands in annual fees for access and gives the researchers nothing. The current system will never meet human needs. It will only serve profit. Wouldn't translators having tenure at research institutions and releasing their works into the public domain be exponentially better?
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:56 pm I don't know if your account of the origin of copyright is true. I doubt it strongly.
It was in the original Licensing of the Press Act of Canada and replaced with a modern copyright law in 1832. If you know otherwise please contact Professor Geist as he will have to change the curricula.
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:56 pm Regardless, copyright evolved into a property right that gives the author of a work the right to make a living off of their labor. As for your insinuation that publishers are taking in unscrupulous profits, that it laughable.

Your opinions about academic publishers is laughable and totally uninformed. There's no one in academic publishing making a killing. The fees journals charge keep the lights on and pay the salaries of a few staff if they are doing even that well. The researchers are happy to get published, but who is going to pay them out of what pot of money? The authors generally have day jobs at universities, commercial R&d, think tanks, etc.
Uh, OK. My personal dealings with Elsevier have taught me otherwise.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... or-science
"It is an industry like no other, with profit margins to rival Google – and it was created by one of Britain’s most notorious tycoons: Robert Maxwell."
But yes, usually all it takes is an email to get a copy.

The problems in publishing is the same problem that makes big pharma buy the patent on a medication and increase the price 1000 times.
The same problem that takes food production and turns it into freakish animal torture and pouring poisons on our food.
The same problem that allows weapons makers to sell to both sides of a conflict and start arms races.
That same problem makes politics about who can spend more.
The same problem that allows energy companies to produce unlimited amounts of carbon.

Can you guess what the actual problem is? Going back to a previously slightly less broken system for a handful of small fries is both impossible and a waste of time. Academics and translators should be able to make living without having to sell their wares like hot dog vendors. It is a valuable service and like doctors,firemen or teachers they should be on the public payroll. What they produce should be owned by everyone. No one should own knowledge.
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by pemachophel »

No one should own knowledge. OK, but what about the time and effort that goes into finding, creating, researching, and vetting that knowledge and then writing/formatting that knowledge in a way that can be shared with others?

In terms of copyright, that is exactly what copyright law says. It is the words of an author that are copyrighted, not the ideas, i.e., not the knowledge.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Nemo
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Nemo »

pemachophel wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:51 pm No one should own knowledge. OK, but what about the time and effort that goes into finding, creating, researching, and vetting that knowledge and then writing/formatting that knowledge in a way that can be shared with others?

In terms of copyright, that is exactly what copyright law says. It is the words of an author that are copyrighted, not the ideas, i.e., not the knowledge.
Scholarship should be supported even if it does not produce profits. It produces intangible benefits for society. Relying on profits will leave it in the condition of pharma and industrial food production.

Some scholars didn't produce anything of value until their late 50s. I've seen it in my own experience. They produced obscure works that were never popular but changed their entire field of inquiry. Profit is an incredibly ignorant motive to organize human life around. The status quo will lead to our extinction. Imagine something better.
Last edited by Nemo on Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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justsit
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by justsit »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:16 pm ... there is something unique to sitting down with that hefty Sunday paper and working through it with a cup of coffee.
This exactly. It's what makes a frigid February Sunday morning bearable, and offers at least the semblance of something cosmopolitan for those of us trapped where an evening out means a trip to Tractor Supply and dining means Waffle House.
Not to mention they usually have a decent crossword.

I've never read a book online, and fervently hope I never have to.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

"Piracy" as such is completely unavoidable given technology, and will continue to be an issue. I have a teacher that gives out a whole Dharma library to students on a thumb drive.

On a personal level I spend a good chunk of money for things to support publishers, plus I can't get into texts the same way in electronic form and prefer to own a hard copy.

IP law is nonsensical though, I don't base my ethical decisions on it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Virgo »

I didn't know pirates enjoyed books. I thought they just enjoyed reading archives.

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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Simon E. »

Kevin!
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Nemo
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Nemo »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:13 pm "Piracy" as such is completely unavoidable given technology, and will continue to be an issue. I have a teacher that gives out a whole Dharma library to students on a thumb drive.

On a personal level I spend a good chunk of money for things to support publishers, plus I can't get into texts the same way in electronic form and prefer to own a hard copy.

IP law is nonsensical though, I don't base my ethical decisions on it.
Ya, if I read a book I buy it but all my stupas have absolutely huge digital libraries of books, many of the tantras, countless depictions of deities and the Kanjyur and Tanjur.
I agree we can't go back to the old days and scholarship is more important than ever to human survival.
Owning ideas is a silly modern convention we need to transcend to move forward.
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Virgo »

Simon E. wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:23 pmKevin!
:D

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Queequeg
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Queequeg »

Nemo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:45 pm It was in the original Licensing of the Press Act of Canada and replaced with a modern copyright law in 1832. If you know otherwise please contact Professor Geist as he will have to change the curricula.
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/
You're talking about a particular law, not about copyright in general.
Uh, OK. My personal dealings with Elsevier have taught me otherwise.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... or-science
"It is an industry like no other, with profit margins to rival Google – and it was created by one of Britain’s most notorious tycoons: Robert Maxwell."
But yes, usually all it takes is an email to get a copy.
I am admittedly not as familiar with scientific publishing except from the perspective of the scientists getting published who, as the article notes, generally aren't concerned with the business of publishing,I'm definitely taking note and will be interested to hear how the people I know see the issue. But, to be clear, the controversy you are pointing to is in the hard sciences and does not hold true for all academic publishing. This problem does not apply to to the humanities, for instance. The budgets for the humanities simply are not there.
Can you guess what the actual problem is? Going back to a previously slightly less broken system for a handful of small fries is both impossible and a waste of time. Academics and translators should be able to make living without having to sell their wares like hot dog vendors. It is a valuable service and like doctors,firemen or teachers they should be on the public payroll. What they produce should be owned by everyone. No one should own knowledge.
So here you're talking about the humanities. So let's talk about the humanities.

In the past, academics, whose work often included translating, made their livings as college and university faculty, and that's still largely the case. The problem is that the humanities are being defunded and so its becoming harder to make a reasonable living in the humanities. For those who can get tenure track positions, life is more or less similar to the way it has been in the post war world. The problem is those positions are fewer and further afield and colleges and universities are increasingly just getting by using adjunct faculty who generally have bigger workloads than tenure track faculty and get paid less.

There is a lot of hand wringing about the decline of the humanities. A lot of the blame is put on the growing emphasis on STEM in general and a political assault on the humanities by conservatives.

I'm wondering if the problem is the changing significance of a college education. The ideal of the liberal arts education is basically to create a well rounded person. That is a very privileged pursuit that was developed by and for a particular class of people. College is now not seen as an opportunity to "grow as a person", but rather now its a requisite for many jobs, and so of emphasis is being placed on practical curricula. Basically, the liberal arts education is going back to what it was - something for the privileged to indulge in for a few years before embarking on a career. For the rest, college is about getting skills and demonstrating capabilities for employers who need skilled technicians.

What you are talking about is going back to what you say is impossible.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by conebeckham »

Virgo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:14 pm I didn't know pirates enjoyed books. I thought they just enjoyed reading archives.

Virgo
They don't have the patience for books, and it's hard to turn pages with a hook for a hand....mostly, they read Arrrrrrticles.
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by jake »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:49 pm
Virgo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:14 pm I didn't know pirates enjoyed books. I thought they just enjoyed reading archives.

Virgo
They don't have the patience for books, and it's hard to turn pages with a hook for a hand....mostly, they read Arrrrrrticles.
They like newspapers because of the cross swords
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Virgo »

:rolling:

:rolling:

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humble.student
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by humble.student »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:57 pm
humble.student wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:15 pm Because we are dealing with only a handful of conglomerates that own both publishing houses and said journals, that's how. Scholars - and librarians - have been raging against this for years.
This sounds very foreign to me, and I'm surrounded by scholars who are publishing or perishing. Sources I could investigate for myself?
Ok, turns out that this subject has been in the news again a couple of months ago:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... er/583909/
https://www.enago.com/academy/move-boyc ... near-dead/

and more generally:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ ... ing#Crisis
https://blogs.bl.uk/science/2017/06/unt ... shing.html#

But if you want more entertainment, look no further than all the hoax papers being published by "reputable" firms, that should give you an idea of the quality of the human material involved: https://boingboing.net/2018/09/10/acade ... -mess.html
Last edited by humble.student on Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
humble.student
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by humble.student »

Nemo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:45 pm
Nemo wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:33 pm Copyright was originally a way to make textbooks affordable for schools. It limited the maximum prices publishers could charge.

You don't see the problem with knowledge being profit based? This is most clearly shown in scientific journals. Where the publisher takes 100% of the thousands in annual fees for access and gives the researchers nothing. The current system will never meet human needs. It will only serve profit. Wouldn't translators having tenure at research institutions and releasing their works into the public domain be exponentially better?
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:56 pm I don't know if your account of the origin of copyright is true. I doubt it strongly.
It was in the original Licensing of the Press Act of Canada and replaced with a modern copyright law in 1832. If you know otherwise please contact Professor Geist as he will have to change the curricula.
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/
Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:56 pm Regardless, copyright evolved into a property right that gives the author of a work the right to make a living off of their labor. As for your insinuation that publishers are taking in unscrupulous profits, that it laughable.

Your opinions about academic publishers is laughable and totally uninformed. There's no one in academic publishing making a killing. The fees journals charge keep the lights on and pay the salaries of a few staff if they are doing even that well. The researchers are happy to get published, but who is going to pay them out of what pot of money? The authors generally have day jobs at universities, commercial R&d, think tanks, etc.
Uh, OK. My personal dealings with Elsevier have taught me otherwise.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... or-science
"It is an industry like no other, with profit margins to rival Google – and it was created by one of Britain’s most notorious tycoons: Robert Maxwell."
But yes, usually all it takes is an email to get a copy.

The problems in publishing is the same problem that makes big pharma buy the patent on a medication and increase the price 1000 times.
The same problem that takes food production and turns it into freakish animal torture and pouring poisons on our food.
The same problem that allows weapons makers to sell to both sides of a conflict and start arms races.
That same problem makes politics about who can spend more.
The same problem that allows energy companies to produce unlimited amounts of carbon.

Can you guess what the actual problem is? Going back to a previously slightly less broken system for a handful of small fries is both impossible and a waste of time. Academics and translators should be able to make living without having to sell their wares like hot dog vendors. It is a valuable service and like doctors,firemen or teachers they should be on the public payroll. What they produce should be owned by everyone. No one should own knowledge.
You'll just have to tell your professor Geist to look into St Columba of the 6th century (https://opensource.com/law/11/6/story-s ... ry-ireland) as well as the 18th century French spy and playwright Beaumarchais, who initiated the modern business of copyright as we know it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APi ... _Reference
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Queequeg
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Re: So, you read pirated books?

Post by Queequeg »

The profiteering in science publishing is an aberration that stands as an exception to what we see more generally in publishing. It's a function of some publishers gaming research library acquisition policies. It's silly to build an argument against copyright and justify piracy on the basis of Elsevier.

The proliferation of publishers who are constantly searching for content to monetize and the resultant publication of basically anything doesn't alter the overall impact of piracy either.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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